Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[Kaka Tim]

How it will help the tories is that it will become a lightening rod for the activist left, while they’re raging at Tommy they’re letting May off the hook over the NHS, housing and everything else that has a more direct impact on people’s lives (for now). I think this is why the tories liked UKIP too, go after class clown Farage and let nice Cameron and Osborne get on with filleting the state. It makes them look not so bad in comparison, but they have actual power and are using it against the public.

its not either or though is it? fascism and the ideas it spreads needs to be confronted whenever it rears its head - and that very often means on the street. and austerity needs to be challenged and overturned. i cant see why you cant do both - and both require different approaches.
The tommy robinson stuff and attendant rise of far right/islamophobic street politics is being studiously ignored by the media (very little coverage of the sat demo - and numbers described as being in the 100s) - but the toxin is out there. We are seeing hysterical and frightening levels of islamophobia that is permeating throughout popular discourse.
And the tories did not like UKIP - it was taking a big bite out of their vote share - hence the brexit referendum and the "hostile environment" stuff.
It also feeds into - and is fed - by the brexit process/debacle - the suspicious, paranoid, racist, nationalist daily mail world view is helps create a climate of acceptability for the likes of robinson - a patriotic brit, bravely taking on the pernicious elitist establishment, speaking truth to power and being punished for it etc etc etc. "Somebody needs to take a stand". "At least hes trying to do something".

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Nor is he a household name. At least no more so than, say, Owen Jones is for us.

Where do you get this idea from? I see old school friends on social media discussing him and hear him mentioned in the pub.

 

[danny la rouge]

chilango Indeed. Wanting to test the household name theory, I asked 5 people I've seen this morning (two of them members of my immediate family [my partner and daughter]; a woman I'm related to [a high school dinner lady]; a retired joiner; and a nurse) if they knew who Tommy Robinson was. None of them did. When prompted with details of the contempt case, only the retired joiner was vaguely aware of it. The others had no knowledge of the story. He is the most "political" of them though.

Not scientific, and certainly adds to the image my friends and family have of me as a weirdo. But undermines the idea that he's a household name in those households.

I'd like to see some research on the make-up of his support before I proclaim on what it is that people are attracted to.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where do you get this idea from? I see old school friends on social media discussing him and hear him mentioned in the pub.

only one person on my facebook has ever mentioned him and they've been very much anti.

 

[danny la rouge]

Where do you get this idea from? I see old school friends on social media discussing him and hear him mentioned in the pub.

We're discussing him. But I'd argue we're far from typical in many ways.

 

[treelover]

Auld tory treelover weighs in.

See Danny's post above

 

[ska invita]

A few things worth thinking about before attempting to evaluate Tommy Robinson's appeal (or not) to the working class.

Why are we talking about the working class in particular? A mass appeal amongst the middle classes would be of concern too. Certainly electorally. However, I would argue that we should be more concerned about the w/c because our movement(s) need to be built from, in, and by, the working class if we are to build an alternative to capitalism rather than push fpr reforms within it. Y'know. Marx and the proletariat and that. That's why the far-right building in the w/c is of specific interest to us.

We've already discussed the vacuum left by the retreat of the Left seemingly ad infinitum. The BNP vote and then the UKIP vote show that there's a sustained audience for the far-right to exploit. At the moment the absence of an electoral vehicle leaves the stage empty for someone new. Concerning as it is a few thousand bodies on demos and trending hashtags on social media (or whatever) are not at the same level. Yet. There's no reason to doubt that something, or someone will though.

Interesting to flip the situation and consider how we'd be feeling if Tommy Robinson was one of us. Would be we be happy with 10k on an A-B march and retweets? No. We wouldn't surely? We've put many x those numbers on the streets and nothing much has come of it. Tommy Robinson has a bit of a media profile but is far from a credible, unifying figure for the Right. Yet. Nor is he a household name. At least no more so than, say, Owen Jones is for us.

TL;DR It's all still to play for.

Agree this is nothing new, people who like the message have long been there, it's far from all over etc. What's new is the international connections, increasing mainstreaming of far right thinking, and very effective social media presence, millions of video views etc. It's far from all there yet but the ground looks very fertile.

On the point of the us-euro bridges the far right is building I'm curious if anyone has an opinion about this piece, which suggests what is lacking from the left are our own international alliances
The rise of the far right – what is to be done? Opening the debate

 

[Pickman's model]

See Danny's post above

quoted below

We're discussing him. But I'd argue we're far from typical in many ways.

what's the relevance, treelover?

 

[treelover]

How it will help the tories is that it will become a lightening rod for the activist left, while they’re raging at Tommy they’re letting May off the hook over the NHS, housing and everything else that has a more direct impact on people’s lives (for now). I think this is why the tories liked UKIP too, go after class clown Farage and let nice Cameron and Osborne get on with filleting the state. It makes them look not so bad in comparison, but they have actual power and are using it against the public.

Biggest thing here atm is the planning for a local TRUMP! demo, again resourced by the rape apologists, oh, the ironing.Never mind, homelessness, people being refused care, etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

A few things worth thinking about before attempting to evaluate Tommy Robinson's appeal (or not) to the working class.

Why are we talking about the working class in particular? A mass appeal amongst the middle classes would be of concern too. Certainly electorally. However, I would argue that we should be more concerned about the w/c because our movement(s) need to be built from, in, and by, the working class if we are to build an alternative to capitalism rather than push fpr reforms within it. Y'know. Marx and the proletariat and that. That's why the far-right building in the w/c is of specific interest to us.

We've already discussed the vacuum left by the retreat of the Left seemingly ad infinitum. The BNP vote and then the UKIP vote show that there's a sustained audience for the far-right to exploit. At the moment the absence of an electoral vehicle leaves the stage empty for someone new. Concerning as it is a few thousand bodies on demos and trending hashtags on social media (or whatever) are not at the same level. Yet. There's no reason to doubt that something, or someone will though.

Interesting to flip the situation and consider how we'd be feeling if Tommy Robinson was one of us. Would be we be happy with 10k on an A-B march and retweets? No. We wouldn't surely? We've put many x those numbers on the streets and nothing much has come of it. Tommy Robinson has a bit of a media profile but is far from a credible, unifying figure for the Right. Yet. Nor is he a household name. At least no more so than, say, Owen Jones is for us.

TL;DR It's all still to play for.

i'd be pretty pleased with 10,000 on a march for prisoner solidarity at short notice. pretty fucking pleased.

when was the last left prisoner solidarity event which attracted even a tenth of that number? i do some prisoner solidarity work and it's a good day when we get a dozen or a score to a picket.

 

[chilango]

Where do you get this idea from? I see old school friends on social media discussing him and hear him mentioned in the pub.

I've never* heard his name in real life conversation.

*Once, my wife asked me "is that that EDL bloke?" as we drove past the "Pray for Tommy Robinson" billboard on the M40.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

We're discussing him. But I'd argue we're far from typical in many ways.

Well I mean working class people who aren’t in any lefty bubble or part of the organised right.

 

[treelover]

How it will help the tories is that it will become a lightening rod for the activist left, while they’re raging at Tommy they’re letting May off the hook over the NHS, housing and everything else that has a more direct impact on people’s lives (for now). I think this is why the tories liked UKIP too, go after class clown Farage and let nice Cameron and Osborne get on with filleting the state. It makes them look not so bad in comparison, but they have actual power and are using it against the public.

bang on, but watch you are not called a racist/xenophobe for pointing this out(not on here)

 

[chilango]

Agree this is nothing new, people who like the message have long been there, it's far from all over etc. What's new is the international connections, increasing mainstreaming of far right thinking, and very effective social media presence, millions of video views etc. It's far from all there yet but the ground looks very fertile.

On the point of the us-euro bridges the far right is building I'm curious if anyone has an opinion about this piece, which suggests what is lacking from the left are our own international alliances
The rise of the far right – what is to be done? Opening the debate

I'd agree that it isn't just "more of the same". Of course, movements develop. But we need to be cool headed here.

 

[ska invita]

bang on, but watch you are not called a racist/xenophobe for pointing this out(not on here)

If you think this is all a side show you're ignorant of history... And of racist violence

 

[chilango]

when was the last left prisoner solidarity event.

when was the last left prisoner solidarity event?

 

[treelover]

its not either or though is it? fascism and the ideas it spreads needs to be confronted whenever it rears its head - and that very often means on the street. and austerity needs to be challenged and overturned. i cant see why you cant do both - and both require different approaches.
The tommy robinson stuff and attendant rise of far right/islamophobic street politics is being studiously ignored by the media (very little coverage of the sat demo - and numbers described as being in the 100s) - but the toxin is out there. We are seeing hysterical and frightening levels of islamophobia that is permeating throughout popular discourse.
And the tories did not like UKIP - it was taking a big bite out of their vote share - hence the brexit referendum and the "hostile environment" stuff.
It also feeds into - and is fed - by the brexit process/debacle - the suspicious, paranoid, racist, nationalist daily mail world view is helps create a climate of acceptability for the likes of robinson - a patriotic brit, bravely taking on the pernicious elitist establishment, speaking truth to power and being punished for it etc etc etc. "Somebody needs to take a stand". "At least hes trying to do something".

Genuine question, who is doing it in Leeds, fighting austerity?, because here it has largely come to a stop.

 

[Pickman's model]

Genuine question, who is doing it in Leeds, fighting austerity?, because here it has largely come to a stop.

how fortunate you are then, they're still carrying on full steam ahead with austerity in london

 

[Pickman's model]

when was the last left prisoner solidarity event?

last one i attended was about a month ago.

 

[chilango]

i'd be pretty pleased with 10,000 on a march for prisoner solidarity at short notice. pretty fucking pleased.

when was the last left prisoner solidarity event which attracted even a tenth of that number? i do some prisoner solidarity work and it's a good day when we get a dozen or a score to a picket.

In fairness 10k or 15k on the streets for the far-right (for any any cause) is certainly a quantitive leap. And a worrying one. Is it yet a qualitative leap though?

 

[chilango]

last one i attended was about a month ago.

For who?

 

[Pickman's model]

For who?

tony taylor and the craigavon two

 

[Kaka Tim]

and where is the evidence that "the working class" are flocking to tommy's banner? his supporters seem to the same demographic as ever - middle aged white blokes with a thing for public displays of machismo and the usual range of narrow minded, bigoted opinions. that is not "the working class" - its a self styled cultural identity that has consciously adopted a stereotype of white working class cultural signifiers.
I would bet very few of them work in traditional working class professions - more likely to be self employed/small business types - an area with little tradition of collectivism and the traditional recruiting ground for fascism. You aren't going to win these people over with a commitment to better wages, better public services and more council houses - they dont give a fuck.
its all - immigrants are to blame. islamic takeover. fucking political correctness/europe. welfare scroungers.

 

[ska invita]

and where is the evidence that "the working class" are flocking to tommy's banner? his supporters seem to the same demographic as ever - middle aged white blokes with a thing for public displays of machismo and the usual range of narrow minded, bigoted opinions. that is not "the working class" - its a self styled cultural identity that has consciously adopted a stereotype of white working class cultural signifiers.
I would bet very few of them work in traditional working class professions - more likely to be self employed/small business types - an area with little tradition of collectivism and the traditional recruiting ground for fascism. You aren't going to win these people over with a commitment to better wages, better public services and more council houses - they dont give a fuck.
its all - immigrants are to blame. islamic takeover. fucking political correctness/europe. welfare scroungers.

That's pretty true based on the demo demographic, but there is wider support online

 

[Magnus McGinty]

and where is the evidence that "the working class" are flocking to tommy's banner? his supporters seem to the same demographic as ever - middle aged white blokes with a thing for public displays of machismo and the usual range of narrow minded, bigoted opinions. that is not "the working class" - its a self styled cultural identity that has consciously adopted a stereotype of white working class cultural signifiers.
I would bet very few of them work in traditional working class professions - more likely to be self employed/small business types - an area with little tradition of collectivism and the traditional recruiting ground for fascism. You aren't going to win these people over with a commitment to better wages, better public services and more council houses - they dont give a fuck.
its all - immigrants are to blame. islamic takeover. fucking political correctness/europe. welfare scroungers.

Ok - so you’re speculating about a bunch of people based on how they look, in other words from photos you’ve seen. Where as I’m talking about how he’s now mentioned amongst people I know: on social media, in the pub, at work etc.

 

[chilango]

Ok - so you’re speculating about a bunch of people based on how they look, in other words from photos you’ve seen. Where as I’m talking about how he’s now mentioned amongst people I know: on social media, in the pub, at work etc.

what are they saying?

 

[danny la rouge]

Well I mean working class people who aren’t in any lefty bubble or part of the organised right.

Just so I don't misunderstand you, you're saying that Tommy Robinson is a household name among 'working class people who aren't in any lefty bubble or part of the organised right'. I'd hate to be complacent, so I'd like to see evidence of this. I mean my first instinct is that this isn't correct, but I'd like to know where the evidence is.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok - so you’re speculating about a bunch of people based on how they look, in other words from photos you’ve seen. Where as I’m talking about how he’s now mentioned amongst people I know: on social media, in the pub, at work etc.

how many people do you know?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I don't know who he is and why he is supposed to be repugnant, but surely its stupid to refuse to read something when it has potentially good information. Which bit of his article did you find repugnant?

It’s not hard to find out. The problem when he says good things is that those things become easily tainted/discredited in the eyes of many just coz he said them. Disagreement over whether they should becomes a distraction.

 

[butchersapron]

I wonder what role the growth of conspiracy culture has played in all this?