Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[Magnus McGinty]

im basing it on the people i know and meet who are - or are likely to be - tommy botherers. and how they look is part of it as well - the clothes, the st georges flags, the puffed up machismo - its a self-conscious image. See ive lived and worked in some of the poorest areas of leeds and bradford for nearly 20 years - and its not there where these fuck nuts tend to come from. Its from "im all right jack" suburbia.

It’s from both.

 

[bimble]

Probably not the best use of your time but this (quite old) article on the evolution of 'tommy' in his own words is interesting if like me you don't know much about him.
Tommy Robinson Explains The Making Of An Alter-Ego Even His Wife Can't Stand

 

[Kaka Tim]

TBH, I'd file it under the same heading as Britain Furst getting all those likes on Facebook - it's a populist message which, on the surface, looks like a valid cause worth fighting for, and for a lot of the kind of people who don't go any further than some kind of instant "bloke put in prison for standing outside a courtroom? That can't be right!" reaction, it will have some appeal. And, once that reaction's been had, pointing out that the twat's a far right mover and shaker and generally antisocial bit of cuntitude then tends to look - to the uninformed - like an attempt to support that terrible act by a bit of ad hominem - "Well, even so, nobody should be shut down for wanting to report the truth - this is a free country".

It won't take very long for the truth to sink in to the vast majority of those people, who will then shuffle off, embarrassedly, and quietly hope that everyone forgets that they showed him any support.

agree with this - all the support on social media is likely to be far less engaged then the people actively promoting it on going on the demos. The new element is the influx of ideas, support and money from outside the uk - principally the US. A lot of the "free tommy" tweets and shares are in the US. The far right in the uk is now fully on board with the "puppets of soros" stuff and other US "alt right" memes. Ditto the "free speech" discourse.
The most dangerous element is how the "fight the Islamic takeover" stuff has become an international rallying point.

 

[Kaka Tim]

It’s from both.

show your workings. the BNP vote - and this is the same people - tended to be concentrated in very white british areas on the edges of larger cities - not the most deprived areas, not amongst the lowest paid. middling suburbia - not leafy but not back to backs and tower blocs either.

 

[Pickman's model]

show your workings. the BNP vote - and this is the same people - tended to be concentrated in very white british areas on the edges of larger cities - not the most deprived areas, not amongst the lowest paid. middling suburbia - not leafy but not back to backs and tower blocs either.

yeh. why do you think they're concentrated in very white british areas on the edges of larger cities?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

In terms of TR's wider visibility:

The main thing that sticks with me about the dust up outside the Green Lanes McDonald's Drive Thru on the same day as the Anti-Fascist conference hasn't been TR's confrontation with the masked up people, but what happened afterwards.

When his assailants have left and he's picked himself up, TR is approached by another man who appears to be a stranger. He says something like "Alright, Tommy?" and has a bit of a laugh at his predicament and then they shake hands.

Now that could be a coincidence, but it does suggest a certain level of both visibility and popularity among ordinary people to me. Even if it's just good for anecdotal ammunition in the pub later rather than full-on support.

 

[mwgdrwg]

I usually refrain from political posts around here but been following Tommy Robinson for a few years with his vlogging....he seems like a good, and extremely brave man. If you have watched his videos and followed him for many years you can understand him. Free Tommy (thats not even his real name....)

Jesusfuckingchrist.

 

[mwgdrwg]

It's like being back on Facebook and finding out half your childhood friends turn out to be Britain First loving racists. Makes me angry.

 

[chilango]

In terms of TR's wider visibility:

The main thing that sticks with me about the dust up outside the Green Lanes McDonald's Drive Thru on the same day as the Anti-Fascist conference hasn't been TR's confrontation with the masked up people, but what happened afterwards.

When his assailants have left and he's picked himself up, TR is approached by another man who appears to be a stranger. He says something like "Alright, Tommy?" and has a bit of a laugh at his predicament and then they shake hands.

Now that could be a coincidence, but it does suggest a certain level of both visibility and popularity among ordinary people to me. Even if it's just good for anecdotal ammunition in the pub later rather than full-on support.

I think there's degrees of visibility.

It would be foolish to claim that TR is some obscure fringe figure known only to the trainspotters amongst us. TR has some level of "celebrity". And this is in itself a departure for the far-right (and far-left) who rarely get known beyond the hobbyists.

But this isn't the same as being a house-hold name or bringing a personal appeal to swell the ranks of the far-right.

I don't think he's at that point of recognition. Yet.

Although - I suspect - some of the organisers behind the current "Free Tommy" stuff are certainly aiming to do this.

 

[ska invita]

show your workings. the BNP vote - and this is the same people - tended to be concentrated in very white british areas on the edges of larger cities - not the most deprived areas, not amongst the lowest paid. middling suburbia - not leafy but not back to backs and tower blocs either.

I agree with the gist of what your saying, and "working class" is so often a pretty useless term to discuss the range of groups in society and their interests, incomes, allegiances and power...but I would say that Clacton, for example, the one seat UKIP won, is far from "alright jack" country:
Socio-economic statistics for Clacton-on-Sea, Essex
and its not unique in that

 

[Pickman's model]

interesting article from political studies


this seems to be open access, so you may be able to get it here SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

 

[Pickman's model]

if not, here it is

1/2

Spoiler

 

[Pickman's model]

2/2

Spoiler

 

[Magnus McGinty]

show your workings. the BNP vote - and this is the same people - tended to be concentrated in very white british areas on the edges of larger cities - not the most deprived areas, not amongst the lowest paid. middling suburbia - not leafy but not back to backs and tower blocs either.

My ‘workings’ are from monitoring those involved and even having grown up with some of them.
Does all your workings come from the internet?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And why has it changed to the BNP all of a sudden? Is your info a decade old?

 

[Pickman's model]

And why has it changed to the BNP all of a sudden? Is your info a decade old?

to be fair the bnp was still doing quite well less than a decade ago

 

[Magnus McGinty]

to be fair the bnp was still doing quite well less than a decade ago

Fair enough. But who kaka was referring to was “Tommy botherers” (#958) which I took to mean the EDL. He then started talking about the BNP. Although there’s overlap between the two.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I agree with the gist of what your saying, and "working class" is so often a pretty useless term to discuss the range of groups in society and their interests, incomes, allegiances and power...but I would say that Clacton, for example, the one seat UKIP won, is far from "alright jack" country:
Socio-economic statistics for Clacton-on-Sea, Essex
and its not unique in that

ha ha - i know clacton very well as its where i grew up - i left aged 24 but have been back regularly since to see me folks. yes it has got a big ukip vote, but there has never been much support for the far right. There's a lot of retired people there - not much in the way of decent, secure employment. a lot of smack. quite a bit of racism. but its quite different to - say - morley in leeds, where the far right vote has been high for decades.

its the sort of place anyone who wants to do anything with their lives moves out of. Out of the me and my five brothers the only one who didn't get the fuck out is the racist, bigoted, UKIP voting one.

 

[Kaka Tim]

yeh. why do you think they're concentrated in very white british areas on the edges of larger cities?

i guess its where a lot of people have moved out to and they cant cope with seeing many people with darker skin pigmentation when they do their shopping in the city centre.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Fair enough. But who kaka was referring to was “Tommy botherers” (#958) which I took to mean the EDL. He then started talking about the BNP. Although there’s overlap between the two.

because the vote for the far right is a reliable measure of where support for the far right is concentrated. And i dont think its a wild stab in the dark to suggest that the people marching up and down waving st george's flags bellowing "free tommy" and "who the fuck is allah?" might just be the same people who were BNP friendly 10 years ago.

 

[Pickman's model]

i guess its where a lot of people have moved out to and they cant cope with seeing many people with darker skin pigmentation when they do their shopping in the city centre.

yeh. you see, as you do not know the backstory of how these white people in e.g. barking and dagenham ended up in barking and dagenham you do not understand why slome of them might feel some of the things they do.

and it reflects more on you than them that you say something so utterly fuckwitted and disgraceful like 'they cant cope with seeing many people with darker skin pigmentation when they do their shopping in the city centre'. can you see why?

 

[Pickman's model]

because the vote for the far right is a reliable measure of where support for the far right is concentrated. And i dont think its a wild stab in the dark to suggest that the people marching up and down waving st george's flags bellowing "free tommy" and "who the fuck is allah?" might just be the same people who were BNP friendly 10 years ago.

you're wrong again. this really isn't your finest hour, you know. the vote for the far right IS NOT necessarily a reliable measure of where support for the far right is concentrated, not until they're standing everywhere.

let me give you an example. in 1993 derek beackon was elected a bnp councillor for the isle of dogs. according to your logic that means support for the far right was concentrated on the isle of dogs. but you don't know how other places felt because no one stood there at the time. if you don't have a far-right candidate for whom people can vote, you don't know whether or not far-right sentiment is concentrated there.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

because the vote for the far right is a reliable measure of where support for the far right is concentrated. And i dont think its a wild stab in the dark to suggest that the people marching up and down waving st george's flags bellowing "free tommy" and "who the fuck is allah?" might just be the same people who were BNP friendly 10 years ago.

Yeah. Including those that don’t vote.

 

[Kaka Tim]

yeh. you see, as you do not know the backstory of how these white people in e.g. barking and dagenham ended up in barking and dagenham you do not understand why slome of them might feel some of the things they do.

and it reflects more on you than them that you say something so utterly fuckwitted and disgraceful like 'they cant cope with seeing many people with darker skin pigmentation when they do their shopping in the city centre'. can you see why?

why fuckwitted and disgraceful? support for the far right, and xenophobia generally is concentrated in areas with the lowest levels of diversity - but often geographically close to more diverse urban areas. so they are more insular - and many of them see ethnic/cultural diversity as a threat, as representing change for the worse, as the factor that has taken "their" culture/city away from them. That doesn't mean that most people who live in morley (or barking) think that way - but more than in other places.

 

[ska invita]

yeh. you see, as you do not know the backstory of how these white people in e.g. barking and dagenham ended up in barking and dagenham you do not understand why slome of them might feel some of the things they do.

and it reflects more on you than them that you say something so utterly fuckwitted and disgraceful like 'they cant cope with seeing many people with darker skin pigmentation when they do their shopping in the city centre'. can you see why?

funnily enough just last week heard someone in Kentish pub scoffing "I went to Stratford this weekend, its was like a Benetton ad" before going into a bunch of racist crap about Chinese people. Its far from uncommon that.

Years since i read it but this book covers a lot of the geography of white racism
Routes of racism: the social basis of racist action by Hewitt, Roger

you're wrong again. this really isn't your finest hour, you know. the vote for the far right IS NOT necessarily a reliable measure of where support for the far right is concentrated, not until they're standing everywhere.

let me give you an example. in 1993 derek beackon was elected a bnp councillor for the isle of dogs. according to your logic that means support for the far right was concentrated on the isle of dogs. but you don't know how other places felt because no one stood there at the time. if you don't have a far-right candidate for whom people can vote, you don't know whether or not far-right sentiment is concentrated there.

partys field candidates where they think they can win/score

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I also think you’ve got a strange understanding of class if you think workers don’t live in ‘suburbia’.

 

[Kaka Tim]

you're wrong again. this really isn't your finest hour, you know. the vote for the far right IS NOT necessarily a reliable measure of where support for the far right is concentrated, not until they're standing everywhere.

let me give you an example. in 1993 derek beackon was elected a bnp councillor for the isle of dogs. according to your logic that means support for the far right was concentrated on the isle of dogs. but you don't know how other places felt because no one stood there at the time. if you don't have a far-right candidate for whom people can vote, you don't know whether or not far-right sentiment is concentrated there.

isle of dogs was down to a particular set of circumstances though (school places? after a lot of bangladeshi families were relocated there?) . An yes - if the far right dont stand - then you cant gauge their support -but those are the numbers we have - and you'd assume that they only stand in places where they think they might do well.

 

[Pickman's model]

why fuckwitted and disgraceful? support for the far right, and xenophobia generally is concentrated in areas with the lowest levels of diversity - but often geographically close to more diverse urban areas. so they are more insular - and many of them see ethnic/cultural diversity as a threat, as representing change for the worse, as the factor that has taken "their" culture/city away from them. That doesn't mean that most people who live in morley (or barking) think that way - but more than in other places.

fuckwitted and disgraceful because you're making sweeping statements about whole communities based on your own prejudices and assumptions.

 

[Pickman's model]

isle of dogs was down to a particular set of circumstances though (school places? after a lot of bangladeshi families were relocated there?) . An yes - if the far right dont stand - then you cant gauge their support -but those are the numbers we have - and you'd assume that they only stand in places where they think they might do well.

no, i wouldn't make that assumption. for example, for many years the nf have stood candidates in west london where they've no hope of being elected. but it's where they have/had a senior member, so every time until at least 2014 he stood.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I also think you’ve got a strange understanding of class if you think workers don’t live in ‘suburbia’.

it may be culturally working class - but these are areas with higher levels of home ownership and income than the big council estates in the cites. "Working class" when talking about support for the far right - or things like UKIP seem to be constantly reduced to a narrow demographic (i guess marketeers would class them as a subsection of c1s and c2s) who are in no way representative of " the working class" as a whole - white or otherwise.