I’ll almost certainly agree with the points you make. But I’m sure you’ll agree that what is needed to be done is to build class power. And some of those people we need on board will think in ways we may not like (although I’m talking about how a lot of people see themselves in terms of national identiy, not Thomas Mair as Rutita is pathetically trying to make out). Fuck me, if all we want are unreconstructed libertarian communist purists then we may as well pack up now and leave the earth for the fascists.
Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'
- Thread starter Cloo
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I’ll almost certainly agree with the points you make. But I’m sure you’ll agree that what is needed to be done is to build class power. And some of those people we need on board will think in ways we may not like (although I’m talking about how a lot of people see themselves in terms of national identiy, not Thomas Mair as Rutita is pathetically trying to make out). Fuck me, if all we want are unreconstructed libertarian communist purists then we may as well pack up now and leave the earth for the fascists.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
I'm not interested in unreconstituted libertarian communist purists either but class power isn't built out of a politics based on uniting the nation or seeing commonality with our "betters". Class power won't come about through what you or I do (or those on the left, for that matter). It'll only happen when people start fighting for themselves on a far wider scale than happens now. I'm not holding my breath but neither am I totally pessimistic. In the meantime, I won't be shifting from my usual "fuck national identity" position.
Great. Well you’ve alienated yourself from a lot of potential allies. The Monarchy knows how this works and it keeps them afloat. In the meantime, the London radical left mostly attracts graduates.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
So would you go pro-royals so not to alienate potential allies? Would you "go religious" so as not to alienate other potential allies? I agree about the radical left, London or elsewhere. That doesn't mean you have to cede the territory to them. I do talk to people who say they're patriotic quite a lot. I also tell them they're talking out their arse. So far, it's not been a problem and I doubt I've alienated... er... many
I'm still not sure what you suggest we do Magnus... go all patriotic???
So would you go pro-royals so not to alienate potential allies? Would you "go religious" so as not to alienate other potential allies? I agree about the radical left, London or elsewhere. That doesn't mean you have to cede the territory to them. I do talk to people who say they're patriotic quite a lot. I also tell them they're talking out their arse. So far, it's not been a problem and I doubt I've alienated... er... many
I'm still not sure what you suggest we do Magnus... go all patriotic???
I’m not suggesting that, just not cunting off those (there’s a lot of em) by having a ‘Position’ that alienates those that are needed onside to build class power.
It is similar to religion in that respect actually but less so nowadays.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Give over. Someone talks shite, you say summat, preferably politely, but if they get moody, "cunt them off".
Are we following the class then, or leading them? I assume your position not to be the latter but it doesn’t sound like it.
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Not following and not leading but certainly challenging deluded bullshit. There is no real workers' movement so all we can do is try to encourage things in that direction and push class struggle ideas in our communities and workplaces as and when... not pander to shit ideas because we don't want to scare the horses.
Fair enough. I’m arguing that position and the current failure you mention are connected. You don’t have to agree.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
I don't agree. It's like you're blaming the left for their alienation from the class. And while that's true to a degree, it gives the powerless left far too much credit - implies clout they haven't had for 40 years. The reason for mass de-politicisation and demobilisation have little to do with the failings of the left (outside of the Labour Party). It goes far beyond the shenannigans of lefty politicos.
Patteran
A nowadays excuse
I think Proper Tidy had it right - start with actual sites of struggle & potential improvement, get round to notions of nations if/when it's appropriate. It's just common sense, isnt it? Someone turns up in an England shirt - fine. They insist the event begins with a rousing chorus of rule britannia - not fine. I also agree with Serge Forward & think attempts to articulate a progressive nationalism are wrong, especially in this contemporary British context. Blue Labour/Billy Bragg/John Harris seem to run a piece in the guardian annually about 'celebrate the englishness of the levellers & queuing'. If people want nationalism, they want it full-throated, erect, & the right will always do it better, more convincingly. The answer is to direct their attention & hopefully eventual support to initiatives, struggles that actually bear fruit - that provide material gains rather than a vague buzz of belonging. A tenants' group that successfully caps rents or prevents evictions, a kids' sports team that wins smiles, a union that improves pay & conditions - that's the counter offer, no?
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Bang on.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Whilst I am in favour of working class /communist anti fascism I suppose what I was trying to unravel is the idea that anti fascism in its self has to be left wing or that anti fascists have to be left wing.
Patteran
A nowadays excuse
I think so, yes - the distinction between anti-fascist & against fascists or not-fascist is useful. There's qualitative differences between, say, the POUM & the British 8th Army, between a militant anti-fascist turn out & the metropolitan police. Tommy Robinson getting nicked is not anti-fascism. The US military & Tito's partisans were fighting the same enemy but for different reasons, for different outcomes - can an action be considered anti-fascist when it's ordered by a class who maintain racialised segregation at home? To me, no, it can't - & this elision of anti-fascist & not-fascist has been used in both the US & Britain since WW2 ideologically, to disguise culpability for imperialism/aggression abroad & inequality at home. Maybe it's the outcome, the alternative, that's important - if you're fighting fascists & offering no alternative but the status quo, then all you'll get is more fascists as the conditions that make their approach attractive remain unchallenged. And we're back at 'Filling the Vacuum'.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Racialised segregation not only at home but in the US army here
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Thanks .Re the first 2/3 rds I was thinking more though in terms of activity on the ground rather than state sponsored anti fascism. I've known and come across people involved in anti fascist activity who have had all sorts of oddball politics and views tbh which I wouldnt necesarily describe as being on the left, but theyve been prepared to get stuck in. The last part of your post I feel is important , a lot of the anti fascist scene dont concretly offer an alternative within working class communities .Sure they make an offer to a certain sort of activist or milieu but not to those communities themselves .Which I suppose was the whole point of Filling the Vacuum.
not a trot
Well-Known Member
Does that mean weight watchers will now be sponsoring the cunt.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I'm wary of where press get this 'in solitary to avoid muslims' thing from. Maybe it's true but maybe it isn't and it defo suits his narrative of white crusader in a liberal democracy so wedded to multiculturalism that it can't or won't recognise the danger of the enemy within
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
The Mail got it from the US Spectator, who got it from Ezra Levant, the owner of Rebel Media. So fash repeats fash repeats fash. Not 100% sure of the reliability personally either.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It means his long-suffering followers will be asked to fill syl's bank account again so he can stuff his face on their dime to regain his weight
Treacle Toes
Time
What is pathetic is that you can't even see how the likes of Thomas Mair fit your 'patriot underdog' description/nonsense. But you carry on blaming me eh.
tonysingh
Random Clever and Witty Strapline
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
Satire.
Though obviously I hope it's true
There is a Conrad Duncan who works for the Independent - this looks like Independent style, but can't find anything like it on the Independent website
tonysingh
Random Clever and Witty Strapline
I don’t think the 42 Group were in any way left wing.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Good example. I dunno though, what's left wing. They def weren't marxist, many were zionist, and a lot went to Palestine to fight, although most would have been labour voters in that period I'd imagine, whatever that counts for. They were a working class self defence organisation.
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