Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[Treacle Toes]

I can’t make a single Point without you telling me what I really mean is the white working class (ergo, I’m a racist really).
I’m talking about how the left alienates itself from people. And then you prove my point. By telling me what I really mean and that I’m a racist but I just can’t see it?

I would have no hesitation in calling you a racist if that is what I thought so just get stuffed with this really pathetic tantruming you do when shit is pointed out to you.

It won't stop me from saying what I think about your id-prole, class policing, 'patriot underdog' nonsense either. I love see more and more how 'you are calling me a racist/don't call me a racist' has become the response of choice for anyone being encouraged to thinking about these things a bit more deeply.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Just Fuck off.

Pour yourself another large one.

 

[Serge Forward]

So a prole who gets off on their national side is just a cunt? Out of touch much?

No problem with people following their national team (though it's got to be club before national team every time). That's not patriotism unless someone wants to make it patriotic. So a prole who uses the fortunes of their team for the patriotic fervour is, at best, a div. But may well be a cunt. Wised up much?

 

[Kaka Tim]

since when is "working class" synonymous with "patriotic" or with overt displays of nationalism?
Its not - anymore than its synonymous with "supports brexit". Or "white". Or male. or manual labourer. Its reducing a great mass of people to a narrow, divisive stereotype with fixed views that "the left" have to somehow defer too cos ... well .. why exactly?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

As usual, you actually don't understand the implications of what you post do you?

Your own identity politics are laid bare, repeatedly, and have subtexts that you clearly haven't ever thought about, understand, or are too 'prole' and 'patriotic' to admit. Have a word.

Do you ponder how much of a patronising and sneering you cunt you sound or are you too busy understanding my mind and words better than I can to realise you’re doing it?

 

[krtek a houby]

ETA: ach, what's the fucking point?

 

[The39thStep]

Does national identity equal patriotism? I'm not so sure

Thats an interesting question tbf. I think its possible to be anti fascist and patriotic as well.

 

[jimmer]

More 'Free Tommy' protest in London on Saturday 24 August, this time at multiple locations across the city.

 

[jimmer]

Not sure I agree with this and most of the left don’t either given they celebrate the patriotism of the underdog.
In a UK context there’s plenty who see national identity as part of who they are who aren’t necessarily bigots. The left alienates itself by dismissing all those people (especially when alongside championing ‘correct’ patriotism’).

Why don't you agree with it? I know people can identify with a particular nationality without automatically being a bigot, but the very logic of nationalism is what creates bigotry. I'm also not convinced that supporting 'oppressed nations' is a way of building working class power.

 

[Serge Forward]

Bottom line is class or nation. The two have to be seen as polar opposites by the majority of people if we ever want to have something better than the shit system we live under now.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Bottom line is class or nation. The two have to be seen as polar opposites by the majority of people if we ever want to have something better than the shit system we live under now.

Cart before horse. Build on class grounds not nation and attack chauvinism but shut the fuck up about working class people who identify with nationhood. Class over nation will become apparent through political & social change and struggle. Imo.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's about getting people ready not making them pure. Surely.

 

[19force8]

Thats an interesting question tbf. I think its possible to be anti fascist and patriotic as well.

Well it's possible to be anti-fascist and racist* so I don't see why not.

* From personal experience - in the 80s I worked with an old guy whose brother had been killed in a Japanese PoW camp. He was virulently anti-Japanese and anti-German, ex-CP and serious anti-fascist. Did my head in.

 

[19force8]

I'm also not convinced that supporting 'oppressed nations' is a way of building working class power.

This goes back to Marx and Engels arguments in the first International:

It is, therefore, the task of the “International” to bring the conflict between England and Ireland to the forefront everywhere, and to side with Ireland publicly everywhere. The special task of the Central Council in London is to awaken the consciousness of the English working class that, for them, the national emancipation of Ireland is not a question of abstract justice or humanitarian sentiment, but the first condition of their own social emancipation.

In other words if the working class acquiesces in their rulers' oppression of another nation they strengthen their rulers' power over themselves.

 

[jimmer]

It looks like there will be counter-protests to the next Free Tommy demos in London on Saturday 24 August.

 

[jimmer]

In other words if the working class acquiesces in their rulers' oppression of another nation they strengthen their rulers' power over themselves.

I think that's a good point, but I don't see how it makes supporting 'oppressed' nationalism progressive. It's just saying it's in all of our interest for us to be opposed to oppression.

 

[tonysingh]

I like how this thread hasn't in any way descended into a row. Good job Urbz, good job.

 

[Pickman's model]

I like how this thread hasn't in any way descended into a row. Good job Urbz, good job.

A sad instance of the decline of urban

 

[friedaweed]

I like how this thread hasn't in any way descended into a row. Good job Urbz, good job.

Everyone's on forced ignore T

 

[Patteran]

Thats an interesting question tbf. I think its possible to be anti fascist and patriotic as well.

I dunno - I think there's a difference between 'anti-fascist' & 'being against fascists' - we use anti-fascism as an aspect of a wider communist or anarchist class analysis, no? In 80s & 90s encounters, 'I'm not a fascist I'm a patriot' was trotted out so regularly by under-pressure wrong 'uns that it became a standing joke, a parodied cliche. Patriotism is reactionary by definition. It's woo, designed to maintain & obscure. National identity/identification is material - birth certificates, access to services, obligations to taxes, vulnerability to laws & prisons. This shared set of obligations, exposures, vulnerabilities should be starting points for commonality, for solidarity even. There's obviously right & wrong ways of going about it, but we can't swerve the superstitious dishonesty of patriotism, & saying this, acting on this, is hardly the preserve of possibly made-up middle class lefties - it's one of James Connolly's favourite themes.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

But there’s people who see themselves in terms of a National identity who aren’t patriots in the political sense. For some of those becoming political, the far right have a ready made narrative that may attract them that direction as opposed to eg Rutita’s sneering that will almost certainly repel them.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

When ‘Robinson’ had 1,000,000 + followers on social media and left equivalents have between 1 and 10% of that, we can’t just keep banging the same drum as if it’s all fine.

 

[Treacle Toes]

But there’s people who see themselves in terms of a National identity who aren’t patriots in the political sense. For some of those becoming political, the far right have a ready made narrative that may attract them that direction as opposed to eg Rutita’s sneering that will almost certainly repel them.

Oh go away ffs.

Challenging your nonsense is't sneering, nor is it causing the 'right' to swell it ranks. You may want to look a bit closer to home for that mate. All this 'The left are this and that' using definitions that would cover the likes of Thomas Mair isn't cute. You talk of solidarity and offer none. Your constant class policing and pretense of being a WC hero is all levels of silly. Stop talking the walk, it's dull as fuck.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Oh go away ffs.

Challenging your nonsense is't sneering, nor is it causing the 'right' to swell it ranks. You may want to look a bit closer to home for that mate. All this 'The left are this and that' using definitions that would cover the likes of Thomas Mair isn't cute. You talk of solidarity and offer none. Your constant class policing and pretense of being a WC hero is all levels of silly.

I’m not class policing here or pretending to be a hero. I’m wanting to broaden the discussion. Shibboleths aren’t always conducive for moving forward.

 

[Serge Forward]

When ‘Robinson’ had 1,000,000 + followers on social media and left equivalents have between 1 and 10% of that, we can’t just keep banging the same drum as if it’s all fine.

What drum is that then?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I’m not class policing here or pretending to be a hero. I’m wanting to broaden the discussion. Shibboleths aren’t always conducive for moving forward.

You actually do little else lately. The bookfair thread is a prime example of that. Maybe broaden the discussion by focusing on what you do, can do, want to do, think could be done instead of the constant finger pointing, telling everyone else they are wrong people, doing the wrong thing etc.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

What drum is that then?

Well, everything that people are banging on about that isn’t working. Not sure if you see this yourself but a lot of the left looks simply alien to a lot of people. What’s with smoke grenades on demos?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You actually do little else lately. The bookfair thread is a prime example of that. Maybe broaden the discussion by focusing on what you do, can do, want to do, think could be done instead of the constant finger pointing, telling everyone else they are wrong people, doing the wrong thing etc.

I’m discussing concepts. You make it personal.

 

[Serge Forward]

The left is alien... and often rightly so. But so is the idea of class struggle to most people (except the rich of course... funnily enough they're totally on the ball). The fact that class struggle is alien doesn't mean we have to throw in our lot with all sorts of patriotic or nationalist nonsense. No good will ever come from that.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I’m discussing concepts. You make it personal.

Some concepts are personal. I didn't make the world that way. The concepts that are personal to you are not invisible, nor are the ones that are personal to me. The difference is I am much more comfortable in speaking about them than you are...You hate it when I point that out. Some things you clearly haven't thought about and don't see the connection between.

It's ridiculous. Why did you even refer to me this evening? You just seem so desperate for my attention and to make me personally responsible for stuff that is beyond both of us or the responsibility of both of us.