Preliminary findings of Amnesty International delegates' visit to Jenin
AI Index: MDE 15/058/2002
Publish date: 22/04/2002
On their return from a research mission to Israel and the Occupied Territories, Amnesty International delegates presented today their preliminary findings during a press conference at the Foreign Press Association. Delegates interviewed eye-witnesses and met government representatives, including from the Israeli Defence Forces. They visited Rumaneh village, Jenin city, Jenin City Hospital and Jenin Refugee Camp.
" The evidence compiled indicates that serious breaches of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed, including war crimes, but only an independent international commission of inquiry can establish the full facts and the scale of these violations," said Javier Zúñiga, Director of Regional Strategy of the organization's International Secretariat.
The delegation received credible evidence of such serious violations including:
* Failure to give civilians warning or time to evacuate Jenin refugee camp before Apache helicopters launched their first attacks.
* Failure by the Israeli Defence Forces to protect the people of the refugee camp, who are "protected people" under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilians Persons in Time of War.
* Allegations of extrajudicial executions
* Failure, for 13 days, to allow humanitarian assistance to the people in the camp who were trapped in the rubble of demolished houses or running out of food and water.
* Denial of medical assistance to the wounded in the refugee camp and deliberate targeting of ambulances.
* Excessive use of lethal force and using civilians as a "human shield".
* Ill-treatment, including beatings and degrading treatment, of Palestinian detainees.
* Extensive damage to property with no apparent military necessity.
Commenting on his preliminary findings following the autopsies he carried out in Jenin Hospital, Professor Derrick Pounder said :
"What was striking is what was absent . There were very few bodies in the hospital. There were also none who were seriously injured, only the 'walking wounded'. Thus we have to ask: where are the bodies and where are the seriously injured?''
"Delegates stressed that the UN fact - finding mission which was being set up was an important first step towards establishing the truth. However, an independent international commission of inquiry should follow without delay. This should have the means and the expertise necessary to carry out a serious and thorough investigation. "The report of this investigation must be made public and those found responsible brought to justice".
For more information please call Amnesty International's press office in London, UK, on +44 20 7413 5566
Amnesty International, 1 Easton St., London WC1X 0DW web : http://www.amnesty.org
AI Index: MDE 15/058/2002
Publish date: 22/04/2002
On their return from a research mission to Israel and the Occupied Territories, Amnesty International delegates presented today their preliminary findings during a press conference at the Foreign Press Association. Delegates interviewed eye-witnesses and met government representatives, including from the Israeli Defence Forces. They visited Rumaneh village, Jenin city, Jenin City Hospital and Jenin Refugee Camp.
" The evidence compiled indicates that serious breaches of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed, including war crimes, but only an independent international commission of inquiry can establish the full facts and the scale of these violations," said Javier Zúñiga, Director of Regional Strategy of the organization's International Secretariat.
The delegation received credible evidence of such serious violations including:
* Failure to give civilians warning or time to evacuate Jenin refugee camp before Apache helicopters launched their first attacks.
* Failure by the Israeli Defence Forces to protect the people of the refugee camp, who are "protected people" under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilians Persons in Time of War.
* Allegations of extrajudicial executions
* Failure, for 13 days, to allow humanitarian assistance to the people in the camp who were trapped in the rubble of demolished houses or running out of food and water.
* Denial of medical assistance to the wounded in the refugee camp and deliberate targeting of ambulances.
* Excessive use of lethal force and using civilians as a "human shield".
* Ill-treatment, including beatings and degrading treatment, of Palestinian detainees.
* Extensive damage to property with no apparent military necessity.
Commenting on his preliminary findings following the autopsies he carried out in Jenin Hospital, Professor Derrick Pounder said :
"What was striking is what was absent . There were very few bodies in the hospital. There were also none who were seriously injured, only the 'walking wounded'. Thus we have to ask: where are the bodies and where are the seriously injured?''
"Delegates stressed that the UN fact - finding mission which was being set up was an important first step towards establishing the truth. However, an independent international commission of inquiry should follow without delay. This should have the means and the expertise necessary to carry out a serious and thorough investigation. "The report of this investigation must be made public and those found responsible brought to justice".
For more information please call Amnesty International's press office in London, UK, on +44 20 7413 5566
Amnesty International, 1 Easton St., London WC1X 0DW web : http://www.amnesty.org
High Flyer
New Member
That just shows how fucking brainwashed the Israelis really are. Why do you think there are suicide bombers in the first place then Stratergist? Something to do with Israel occupying Palastinian lands? The Palastinians fighting back with what little they have and then being accused of being terrorists by that fucking nazi Ariel Sharon.
Power to the suicide bombers. Israel can burn in hell for what it's done
Power to the suicide bombers. Israel can burn in hell for what it's done
John Wisehammer - I agree that arguing about semantics can (and probably has) lead to people losing sight of the fact that lots of Palestinians have died in Jenin.
However, it is interesting to note that the strategist implied that anything short of 250 dead would mean that there wasnt a massacre, wheras the BBC (here) are describing a trial of someone who is accused of killing 4 people as a massacre. Sets things into context, really.
Complex.
However, it is interesting to note that the strategist implied that anything short of 250 dead would mean that there wasnt a massacre, wheras the BBC (here) are describing a trial of someone who is accused of killing 4 people as a massacre. Sets things into context, really.
Complex.
high flyer: regardless of how worthy the cause don't you think killing innocent civilians is indefensible?
The continued occupation and atrocities committed by Israel is effectively devaluing Holocaust, making it but a footnote in history. It is a dangerous way to go, because the first effect of this is now seen in France.
Even more dangerous, this rhetoric can be begun to be rationalised.
When Sharon has 72% Israeli support (that includes Israeli Muslims & Christians! – is that the other 28%??). Meanwhile no prominent Jew has stood up and denounced the actions of Israel, even the respected Rabbi Sacchus (s?), who’s given a voice on Radio 4, that I once stopped and listened to, has said that BBC reporting is biased. I’m sorry, that don’t stack – looking at the quality of the journalists currently reporting.
I’m sick of it, I’m sick of them, cos to me it seems they stick together even when they in the wrong. And what you bickering about, body count. Who are the aggressors? A collective blindness, we have seen it before.
Like I said; it is even more dangerous, this rhetoric can be begun to be rationalised.
I respect that there are many Jews and Israelis think otherwise (I met very very few, and certainly none from Israel), but they are refused a voice and there are none that dare lead, lets remember Rabin. But as Sharon purses his scorched earth policy in his final solution, it implies that there was no ‘Final Solution’ to begin with. You are sealing your own fate people.
BTW
Does anyone know why other religions were exiled from Mecca?
Even more dangerous, this rhetoric can be begun to be rationalised.
When Sharon has 72% Israeli support (that includes Israeli Muslims & Christians! – is that the other 28%??). Meanwhile no prominent Jew has stood up and denounced the actions of Israel, even the respected Rabbi Sacchus (s?), who’s given a voice on Radio 4, that I once stopped and listened to, has said that BBC reporting is biased. I’m sorry, that don’t stack – looking at the quality of the journalists currently reporting.
I’m sick of it, I’m sick of them, cos to me it seems they stick together even when they in the wrong. And what you bickering about, body count. Who are the aggressors? A collective blindness, we have seen it before.
Like I said; it is even more dangerous, this rhetoric can be begun to be rationalised.
I respect that there are many Jews and Israelis think otherwise (I met very very few, and certainly none from Israel), but they are refused a voice and there are none that dare lead, lets remember Rabin. But as Sharon purses his scorched earth policy in his final solution, it implies that there was no ‘Final Solution’ to begin with. You are sealing your own fate people.
BTW
Does anyone know why other religions were exiled from Mecca?
Israeli soldiers speak about Jenin pt. 1
The Washington Post • Friday April 26, 2002
Ill-Prepared For a Battle Unexpected - Israeli Reservists Tell Of Jenin Camp Assault
by John Lancaster
JERUSALEM, April 25 -- It was the second day of the battle for the Jenin refugee camp, and things were going badly for the Israelis. Palestinian gunmen, firing from sandbags hidden behind curtained windows, had pinned down advancing Israeli troops on the camp's western edge. Two Israelis had already died.
To a young Israeli army sergeant watching from a nearby rise known as Antennae Hill, perhaps 400 yards above the camp, it was clear that his commanders had been wrong when they had confidently predicted a few days earlier that the Palestinians would surrender at the first sight of approaching tanks.
That's when he heard the orders to open fire.
"The orders were to shoot at each house," recalled the sergeant, a member of a heavy weapons company in the Yoav regiment of the army's Fifth Brigade, a reserve unit that did the bulk of the fighting in Jenin. "The words on the radio were to 'Put a bullet in each window.' "
The sergeant, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said he was troubled by the orders, which did not require soldiers to actually see the gunmen they were trying to kill. But he said the Israeli soldiers didn't hesitate. They pounded a group of cinder-block homes -- the apparent source of Palestinian sniper fire -- with .50-caliber machine guns, M-24 sniper rifles, Barrett sniper rifles and Mod3 grenade launchers.
"It's not true there was a massacre, because guys did not shoot at civilians just like this," the sergeant recalled. "However -- and this is terrible -- it is true that we shot at houses, and God knows how many innocent people got killed."
In separate interviews Wednesday, the sergeant and another Israeli reservist who fought in Jenin, Sgt. Shlomi Lanyado, offered a detailed account of the battle from the perspective of the Israeli forces. The Jenin combat was the heaviest of the recent military operation that Israel launched in the West Bank after a string of suicide bombings. Both sergeants participated in the house-to-house combat in the center of the densely built refugee camp.
The 10-day battle claimed the lives of 23 Israeli soldiers and at least 50 Palestinians -- more may be buried beneath the rubble -- and left the center of the camp in ruins. Israeli officials say most of the dead Palestinians were armed fighters who had turned the camp into a "nest of terror" used to launch suicide bombings against Israelis.
Palestinians say most of the dead were civilians and have accused the Israeli military of committing a massacre in Jenin, which Israel has denied. Israel and the U.N. Security Council are now arguing over the composition of a U.N. team charged with investigating the battle.
The sergeants' accounts add up to only a small piece of a much larger picture. Their recollections are parallel in some respects, but do not provide a comprehensive account of the battle.
Both sergeants have returned to civilian life, and spoke without the presence of Israeli army press officers.
The soldiers described a lack of preparation by Israeli reservists. They were hastily mustered from civilian life less than two weeks before, and were told to expect a Palestinian surrender within three days, the sergeants said. They spent barely a day rehearsing the operation. They also described the trauma of losing close friends in battle.
They expressed grudging admiration for a mostly unseen enemy that had meticulously planned for the assault, stockpiling ammunition, food and medical supplies as well as crude but effective bombs made frommetal canisters filled with phosphate and acetone.
"I can't be contemptuous of them," said Lanyado, 32, a cheerful, animated stage actor and producer who lives in a high-rise near Tel Aviv with his wife and two small children. "Somebody there had thought very much what to do and how to fight and succeeded for 10 or 11 days against a very big army."
Both Lanyado and the other sergeant said they do not believe that Israeli soldiers intentionally killed Palestinian civilians. Lanyado said he and the other members of his platoon went out of their way to treat Palestinians with respect, providing them with water and once summoning a medic to treat an elderly man who collapsed in his bedroom.
The other sergeant, however, said he was troubled not only by the order to fire through open windows without specific, identifiable targets, but also by what he said were insufficient efforts by the army to allow civilians to leave their homes in safety. He also questioned the decision to use bulldozers to knock down houses at a time when he said the fighting had mostly subsided.
Neither soldier said he was aware of Israeli troops using noncombatants as human shields, to open doors, closets or packages that could be booby-trapped, as Palestinians have charged. Both sergeants acknowledged, however, that soldiers often drafted Palestinians to knock on neighbors' doors as the soldiers moved from house to house in search of gunmen and terrorist suspects.
"The thought was that if there was a gunman behind the door, he'll think twice before spraying the whole door," said the sergeant with the heavy weapons company.
Both sergeants said the practice was aimed at saving Palestinian as well as Israeli lives. Israeli military spokesmen denied that Palestinian civilians were deliberately put at risk. The spokesmen said that from the first day of the assault, Israeli forces broadcast regular warnings over loudspeakers in Arabic offering residents a chance to leave the camp in safety and fighters a chance to surrender. They said bulldozers were brought in only as a last resort following the death of 13 soldiers in an ambush.
The Washington Post • Friday April 26, 2002
Ill-Prepared For a Battle Unexpected - Israeli Reservists Tell Of Jenin Camp Assault
by John Lancaster
JERUSALEM, April 25 -- It was the second day of the battle for the Jenin refugee camp, and things were going badly for the Israelis. Palestinian gunmen, firing from sandbags hidden behind curtained windows, had pinned down advancing Israeli troops on the camp's western edge. Two Israelis had already died.
To a young Israeli army sergeant watching from a nearby rise known as Antennae Hill, perhaps 400 yards above the camp, it was clear that his commanders had been wrong when they had confidently predicted a few days earlier that the Palestinians would surrender at the first sight of approaching tanks.
That's when he heard the orders to open fire.
"The orders were to shoot at each house," recalled the sergeant, a member of a heavy weapons company in the Yoav regiment of the army's Fifth Brigade, a reserve unit that did the bulk of the fighting in Jenin. "The words on the radio were to 'Put a bullet in each window.' "
The sergeant, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said he was troubled by the orders, which did not require soldiers to actually see the gunmen they were trying to kill. But he said the Israeli soldiers didn't hesitate. They pounded a group of cinder-block homes -- the apparent source of Palestinian sniper fire -- with .50-caliber machine guns, M-24 sniper rifles, Barrett sniper rifles and Mod3 grenade launchers.
"It's not true there was a massacre, because guys did not shoot at civilians just like this," the sergeant recalled. "However -- and this is terrible -- it is true that we shot at houses, and God knows how many innocent people got killed."
In separate interviews Wednesday, the sergeant and another Israeli reservist who fought in Jenin, Sgt. Shlomi Lanyado, offered a detailed account of the battle from the perspective of the Israeli forces. The Jenin combat was the heaviest of the recent military operation that Israel launched in the West Bank after a string of suicide bombings. Both sergeants participated in the house-to-house combat in the center of the densely built refugee camp.
The 10-day battle claimed the lives of 23 Israeli soldiers and at least 50 Palestinians -- more may be buried beneath the rubble -- and left the center of the camp in ruins. Israeli officials say most of the dead Palestinians were armed fighters who had turned the camp into a "nest of terror" used to launch suicide bombings against Israelis.
Palestinians say most of the dead were civilians and have accused the Israeli military of committing a massacre in Jenin, which Israel has denied. Israel and the U.N. Security Council are now arguing over the composition of a U.N. team charged with investigating the battle.
The sergeants' accounts add up to only a small piece of a much larger picture. Their recollections are parallel in some respects, but do not provide a comprehensive account of the battle.
Both sergeants have returned to civilian life, and spoke without the presence of Israeli army press officers.
The soldiers described a lack of preparation by Israeli reservists. They were hastily mustered from civilian life less than two weeks before, and were told to expect a Palestinian surrender within three days, the sergeants said. They spent barely a day rehearsing the operation. They also described the trauma of losing close friends in battle.
They expressed grudging admiration for a mostly unseen enemy that had meticulously planned for the assault, stockpiling ammunition, food and medical supplies as well as crude but effective bombs made frommetal canisters filled with phosphate and acetone.
"I can't be contemptuous of them," said Lanyado, 32, a cheerful, animated stage actor and producer who lives in a high-rise near Tel Aviv with his wife and two small children. "Somebody there had thought very much what to do and how to fight and succeeded for 10 or 11 days against a very big army."
Both Lanyado and the other sergeant said they do not believe that Israeli soldiers intentionally killed Palestinian civilians. Lanyado said he and the other members of his platoon went out of their way to treat Palestinians with respect, providing them with water and once summoning a medic to treat an elderly man who collapsed in his bedroom.
The other sergeant, however, said he was troubled not only by the order to fire through open windows without specific, identifiable targets, but also by what he said were insufficient efforts by the army to allow civilians to leave their homes in safety. He also questioned the decision to use bulldozers to knock down houses at a time when he said the fighting had mostly subsided.
Neither soldier said he was aware of Israeli troops using noncombatants as human shields, to open doors, closets or packages that could be booby-trapped, as Palestinians have charged. Both sergeants acknowledged, however, that soldiers often drafted Palestinians to knock on neighbors' doors as the soldiers moved from house to house in search of gunmen and terrorist suspects.
"The thought was that if there was a gunman behind the door, he'll think twice before spraying the whole door," said the sergeant with the heavy weapons company.
Both sergeants said the practice was aimed at saving Palestinian as well as Israeli lives. Israeli military spokesmen denied that Palestinian civilians were deliberately put at risk. The spokesmen said that from the first day of the assault, Israeli forces broadcast regular warnings over loudspeakers in Arabic offering residents a chance to leave the camp in safety and fighters a chance to surrender. They said bulldozers were brought in only as a last resort following the death of 13 soldiers in an ambush.
Israeli soldiers speak about Jenin pt.2
The Washington Post • Friday April 26, 2002
Ill-Prepared For a Battle Unexpected - Israeli Reservists Tell Of Jenin Camp Assault
by John Lancaster
JERUSALEM, April 25 -- It was the second day of the battle for the Jenin refugee camp, and things were going badly for the Israelis. Palestinian gunmen, firing from sandbags hidden behind curtained windows, had pinned down advancing Israeli troops on the camp's western edge. Two Israelis had already died.
To a young Israeli army sergeant watching from a nearby rise known as Antennae Hill, perhaps 400 yards above the camp, it was clear that his commanders had been wrong when they had confidently predicted a few days earlier that the Palestinians would surrender at the first sight of approaching tanks.
That's when he heard the orders to open fire.
"The orders were to shoot at each house," recalled the sergeant, a member of a heavy weapons company in the Yoav regiment of the army's Fifth Brigade, a reserve unit that did the bulk of the fighting in Jenin. "The words on the radio were to 'Put a bullet in each window.' "
The sergeant, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said he was troubled by the orders, which did not require soldiers to actually see the gunmen they were trying to kill. But he said the Israeli soldiers didn't hesitate. They pounded a group of cinder-block homes -- the apparent source of Palestinian sniper fire -- with .50-caliber machine guns, M-24 sniper rifles, Barrett sniper rifles and Mod3 grenade launchers.
"It's not true there was a massacre, because guys did not shoot at civilians just like this," the sergeant recalled. "However -- and this is terrible -- it is true that we shot at houses, and God knows how many innocent people got killed."
In separate interviews Wednesday, the sergeant and another Israeli reservist who fought in Jenin, Sgt. Shlomi Lanyado, offered a detailed account of the battle from the perspective of the Israeli forces. The Jenin combat was the heaviest of the recent military operation that Israel launched in the West Bank after a string of suicide bombings. Both sergeants participated in the house-to-house combat in the center of the densely built refugee camp.
The 10-day battle claimed the lives of 23 Israeli soldiers and at least 50 Palestinians -- more may be buried beneath the rubble -- and left the center of the camp in ruins. Israeli officials say most of the dead Palestinians were armed fighters who had turned the camp into a "nest of terror" used to launch suicide bombings against Israelis.
Palestinians say most of the dead were civilians and have accused the Israeli military of committing a massacre in Jenin, which Israel has denied. Israel and the U.N. Security Council are now arguing over the composition of a U.N. team charged with investigating the battle.
The sergeants' accounts add up to only a small piece of a much larger picture. Their recollections are parallel in some respects, but do not provide a comprehensive account of the battle.
Both sergeants have returned to civilian life, and spoke without the presence of Israeli army press officers.
The soldiers described a lack of preparation by Israeli reservists. They were hastily mustered from civilian life less than two weeks before, and were told to expect a Palestinian surrender within three days, the sergeants said. They spent barely a day rehearsing the operation. They also described the trauma of losing close friends in battle.
They expressed grudging admiration for a mostly unseen enemy that had meticulously planned for the assault, stockpiling ammunition, food and medical supplies as well as crude but effective bombs made frommetal canisters filled with phosphate and acetone.
"I can't be contemptuous of them," said Lanyado, 32, a cheerful, animated stage actor and producer who lives in a high-rise near Tel Aviv with his wife and two small children. "Somebody there had thought very much what to do and how to fight and succeeded for 10 or 11 days against a very big army."
Both Lanyado and the other sergeant said they do not believe that Israeli soldiers intentionally killed Palestinian civilians. Lanyado said he and the other members of his platoon went out of their way to treat Palestinians with respect, providing them with water and once summoning a medic to treat an elderly man who collapsed in his bedroom.
The other sergeant, however, said he was troubled not only by the order to fire through open windows without specific, identifiable targets, but also by what he said were insufficient efforts by the army to allow civilians to leave their homes in safety. He also questioned the decision to use bulldozers to knock down houses at a time when he said the fighting had mostly subsided.
Neither soldier said he was aware of Israeli troops using noncombatants as human shields, to open doors, closets or packages that could be booby-trapped, as Palestinians have charged. Both sergeants acknowledged, however, that soldiers often drafted Palestinians to knock on neighbors' doors as the soldiers moved from house to house in search of gunmen and terrorist suspects.
"The thought was that if there was a gunman behind the door, he'll think twice before spraying the whole door," said the sergeant with the heavy weapons company.
Both sergeants said the practice was aimed at saving Palestinian as well as Israeli lives. Israeli military spokesmen denied that Palestinian civilians were deliberately put at risk. The spokesmen said that from the first day of the assault, Israeli forces broadcast regular warnings over loudspeakers in Arabic offering residents a chance to leave the camp in safety and fighters a chance to surrender. They said bulldozers were brought in only as a last resort following the death of 13 soldiers in an ambush.
The Washington Post • Friday April 26, 2002
Ill-Prepared For a Battle Unexpected - Israeli Reservists Tell Of Jenin Camp Assault
by John Lancaster
JERUSALEM, April 25 -- It was the second day of the battle for the Jenin refugee camp, and things were going badly for the Israelis. Palestinian gunmen, firing from sandbags hidden behind curtained windows, had pinned down advancing Israeli troops on the camp's western edge. Two Israelis had already died.
To a young Israeli army sergeant watching from a nearby rise known as Antennae Hill, perhaps 400 yards above the camp, it was clear that his commanders had been wrong when they had confidently predicted a few days earlier that the Palestinians would surrender at the first sight of approaching tanks.
That's when he heard the orders to open fire.
"The orders were to shoot at each house," recalled the sergeant, a member of a heavy weapons company in the Yoav regiment of the army's Fifth Brigade, a reserve unit that did the bulk of the fighting in Jenin. "The words on the radio were to 'Put a bullet in each window.' "
The sergeant, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said he was troubled by the orders, which did not require soldiers to actually see the gunmen they were trying to kill. But he said the Israeli soldiers didn't hesitate. They pounded a group of cinder-block homes -- the apparent source of Palestinian sniper fire -- with .50-caliber machine guns, M-24 sniper rifles, Barrett sniper rifles and Mod3 grenade launchers.
"It's not true there was a massacre, because guys did not shoot at civilians just like this," the sergeant recalled. "However -- and this is terrible -- it is true that we shot at houses, and God knows how many innocent people got killed."
In separate interviews Wednesday, the sergeant and another Israeli reservist who fought in Jenin, Sgt. Shlomi Lanyado, offered a detailed account of the battle from the perspective of the Israeli forces. The Jenin combat was the heaviest of the recent military operation that Israel launched in the West Bank after a string of suicide bombings. Both sergeants participated in the house-to-house combat in the center of the densely built refugee camp.
The 10-day battle claimed the lives of 23 Israeli soldiers and at least 50 Palestinians -- more may be buried beneath the rubble -- and left the center of the camp in ruins. Israeli officials say most of the dead Palestinians were armed fighters who had turned the camp into a "nest of terror" used to launch suicide bombings against Israelis.
Palestinians say most of the dead were civilians and have accused the Israeli military of committing a massacre in Jenin, which Israel has denied. Israel and the U.N. Security Council are now arguing over the composition of a U.N. team charged with investigating the battle.
The sergeants' accounts add up to only a small piece of a much larger picture. Their recollections are parallel in some respects, but do not provide a comprehensive account of the battle.
Both sergeants have returned to civilian life, and spoke without the presence of Israeli army press officers.
The soldiers described a lack of preparation by Israeli reservists. They were hastily mustered from civilian life less than two weeks before, and were told to expect a Palestinian surrender within three days, the sergeants said. They spent barely a day rehearsing the operation. They also described the trauma of losing close friends in battle.
They expressed grudging admiration for a mostly unseen enemy that had meticulously planned for the assault, stockpiling ammunition, food and medical supplies as well as crude but effective bombs made frommetal canisters filled with phosphate and acetone.
"I can't be contemptuous of them," said Lanyado, 32, a cheerful, animated stage actor and producer who lives in a high-rise near Tel Aviv with his wife and two small children. "Somebody there had thought very much what to do and how to fight and succeeded for 10 or 11 days against a very big army."
Both Lanyado and the other sergeant said they do not believe that Israeli soldiers intentionally killed Palestinian civilians. Lanyado said he and the other members of his platoon went out of their way to treat Palestinians with respect, providing them with water and once summoning a medic to treat an elderly man who collapsed in his bedroom.
The other sergeant, however, said he was troubled not only by the order to fire through open windows without specific, identifiable targets, but also by what he said were insufficient efforts by the army to allow civilians to leave their homes in safety. He also questioned the decision to use bulldozers to knock down houses at a time when he said the fighting had mostly subsided.
Neither soldier said he was aware of Israeli troops using noncombatants as human shields, to open doors, closets or packages that could be booby-trapped, as Palestinians have charged. Both sergeants acknowledged, however, that soldiers often drafted Palestinians to knock on neighbors' doors as the soldiers moved from house to house in search of gunmen and terrorist suspects.
"The thought was that if there was a gunman behind the door, he'll think twice before spraying the whole door," said the sergeant with the heavy weapons company.
Both sergeants said the practice was aimed at saving Palestinian as well as Israeli lives. Israeli military spokesmen denied that Palestinian civilians were deliberately put at risk. The spokesmen said that from the first day of the assault, Israeli forces broadcast regular warnings over loudspeakers in Arabic offering residents a chance to leave the camp in safety and fighters a chance to surrender. They said bulldozers were brought in only as a last resort following the death of 13 soldiers in an ambush.
vanityvehicle
larrikin
I really don't want to get heavily involved in the debate over this, but this is an apparently well-researched piece from the (admittedly right-wing) Washington Times, saying that the PA are now claiming a death toll of 56.
Their sources seem sound - the claim comes from Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director Fatah for the northern West Bank. I can't for the life of me think of any reason why Fatah would be playing down the death toll if it really was any higher than 56, but maybe there's something I'm not thinking of.
Their sources seem sound - the claim comes from Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director Fatah for the northern West Bank. I can't for the life of me think of any reason why Fatah would be playing down the death toll if it really was any higher than 56, but maybe there's something I'm not thinking of.
Well, it looks as though we will never know what really happened in Jenin, since it seems as though the UN fact finding mission has given up - see the BBC report here
After the UN had met all the previous Israeli demands, a new set of demands has appeared, including Israeli control over who the UN team meets, and what documents the UN team sees. Now, forgive me for being cynical, but I thought the whole idea of the UN fact finding team was to get both sides of the story, which is never going to happen if they only talk to people who Israel have approved.
I thought that the Israeli delays would have meant that there was plenty of time to clean up any evidence that Israel didnt want the UN team to see. However, it appears that they have more to hide, and so the fact finding mission is likely to be abandonned.
If any pro-Israeli would like to explain why Israel has the right to demand control over who the UN team would have met, I would be interested to hear thier explanation. Otherwise, I will assume that Israel did massacre Palestinians in Jenin, and is trying to hide the truth.
Love and peace,
Complex.
After the UN had met all the previous Israeli demands, a new set of demands has appeared, including Israeli control over who the UN team meets, and what documents the UN team sees. Now, forgive me for being cynical, but I thought the whole idea of the UN fact finding team was to get both sides of the story, which is never going to happen if they only talk to people who Israel have approved.
I thought that the Israeli delays would have meant that there was plenty of time to clean up any evidence that Israel didnt want the UN team to see. However, it appears that they have more to hide, and so the fact finding mission is likely to be abandonned.
If any pro-Israeli would like to explain why Israel has the right to demand control over who the UN team would have met, I would be interested to hear thier explanation. Otherwise, I will assume that Israel did massacre Palestinians in Jenin, and is trying to hide the truth.
Love and peace,
Complex.
I haven't seen that washington times claim repeated yet. it sounds wrong, not least because the latest *confirmed death count is 52. israel is claiming *7 palestinian civilians killed by the way (they say there were "almost no innocent civilians"). the last figure I saw from Palestinians was via israeli indymedia and it was for 150 missing from Jenin Mayor Walid Abu Mowais. locals have said that half the retrieved bodies so far are of civilians. digging bodies out has been made difficult by the blocking of international teams (greeks earlier this week) and the fact that all local council bulldozers bar one which one driver had borrowed and taken home were destroyed by the IDF (as part of the policy of palestinian infrastructure destruction).
there have also been statements by humanitarian agencies that 800 houses - not 100 as the IDF claim - were destroyed or damaged beyond repair.
But IDF statements have swung wildly - one reason for the scepticism of observers along with the barring of all journalists, although hand-held footage of the actual battle has been shown on arab TV. they showed alleys lined up with male bodies (many armed) - by the time the first (Israeli) media got in they saw only one body in the streets.
This is one thing which slipped out: "Officers of the IDF expressed their shock" about what happened in Jenin: "When the world will see the pictures of what we have done there, it will cause us enormous damage." (Ha'aretz, April 9).
Israeli soldiers as well have let slip what happened. The Indie and Guardian have reported that after the death of 23 soldiers there was a change in tactics which led to the most deaths." To the question whether he saw civilians get hurt, the reservist answered: "Personally - not. But the point is that they were inside the houses. The last days, the majority of those who came out of the houses were old people, women and children, who were there the whole time and absorbed our fire. These people were not given any chance to leave the camp, and we are talking about many people" (Ofer Shelah, Yediot Aharonot's weekend supplement, April 19). Israeli soldiers have also confirmed the use of human shields.
And there remain unanswered questions about removed bodies: "the IDF intends to bury today Palestinians killed in the West Bank camp. Around 200 Palestinians are believed to have been killed in clashes with Israeli soldiers since the start of the operation last week... Military sources said until now the IDF has not buried any of the bodies. The sources said that two infantry companies, along with members of the military rabbinate, will enter the camp today to collect the bodies. Those who can be identified as civilians will be moved to a hospital in Jenin, and then on to burial, while those identified as terrorists will be buried at a special cemetery in the Jordan Valley. One Israeli source said that the decision to bury the bodies was taken to prevent the Palestinians from using the bodies for propaganda purposes...The Palestinian Authority has expressed concerns that Israel is trying to hide the large number of dead, since it has blocked Palestinian medical teams from evacuating the dead and wounded from the camp during the past week. " (Ha'aretz, April 12). Israeli TV news the evening before shown special refrigerating trucks waiting to transfer the bodies to "terrorist cemeteries" in the Jordan valley. A challenge to the Israeli High Counrt about this was refused.
Not too many further questions were asked In Israel regarding how the IDF's initial estimate of 200 dead in battle became "dozens - not hundreds".
There have also been reports that the UN has a list of everyone in the camp but this has been reported as "innacurate" meaning that final figures on missing will remain open to being contested by Israel - we may never know the true death toll, which is obviously in Israel's interest.
some hopeful news. Ha'aretz reports today [http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y] that if the mission on Jenin is blocked, as seems likely, then the security council can order a *commission of enquiry which Israel would be forced to accept. However various media outlets report that the deal to free Arafat was done by the US promising sharon that they would block anything further on jenin in the security council. The SF Chronicle reported that Condeleeza Rice passed on a message from Bush to Sharon saying "will be with you the entire way." I think that Jenin is already slipping, or rather being pushed, in to history and - like shabra and chatilla - nothing will happen, no one will ever be prosecuted.
there have also been statements by humanitarian agencies that 800 houses - not 100 as the IDF claim - were destroyed or damaged beyond repair.
But IDF statements have swung wildly - one reason for the scepticism of observers along with the barring of all journalists, although hand-held footage of the actual battle has been shown on arab TV. they showed alleys lined up with male bodies (many armed) - by the time the first (Israeli) media got in they saw only one body in the streets.
This is one thing which slipped out: "Officers of the IDF expressed their shock" about what happened in Jenin: "When the world will see the pictures of what we have done there, it will cause us enormous damage." (Ha'aretz, April 9).
Israeli soldiers as well have let slip what happened. The Indie and Guardian have reported that after the death of 23 soldiers there was a change in tactics which led to the most deaths." To the question whether he saw civilians get hurt, the reservist answered: "Personally - not. But the point is that they were inside the houses. The last days, the majority of those who came out of the houses were old people, women and children, who were there the whole time and absorbed our fire. These people were not given any chance to leave the camp, and we are talking about many people" (Ofer Shelah, Yediot Aharonot's weekend supplement, April 19). Israeli soldiers have also confirmed the use of human shields.
And there remain unanswered questions about removed bodies: "the IDF intends to bury today Palestinians killed in the West Bank camp. Around 200 Palestinians are believed to have been killed in clashes with Israeli soldiers since the start of the operation last week... Military sources said until now the IDF has not buried any of the bodies. The sources said that two infantry companies, along with members of the military rabbinate, will enter the camp today to collect the bodies. Those who can be identified as civilians will be moved to a hospital in Jenin, and then on to burial, while those identified as terrorists will be buried at a special cemetery in the Jordan Valley. One Israeli source said that the decision to bury the bodies was taken to prevent the Palestinians from using the bodies for propaganda purposes...The Palestinian Authority has expressed concerns that Israel is trying to hide the large number of dead, since it has blocked Palestinian medical teams from evacuating the dead and wounded from the camp during the past week. " (Ha'aretz, April 12). Israeli TV news the evening before shown special refrigerating trucks waiting to transfer the bodies to "terrorist cemeteries" in the Jordan valley. A challenge to the Israeli High Counrt about this was refused.
Not too many further questions were asked In Israel regarding how the IDF's initial estimate of 200 dead in battle became "dozens - not hundreds".
There have also been reports that the UN has a list of everyone in the camp but this has been reported as "innacurate" meaning that final figures on missing will remain open to being contested by Israel - we may never know the true death toll, which is obviously in Israel's interest.
some hopeful news. Ha'aretz reports today [http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y] that if the mission on Jenin is blocked, as seems likely, then the security council can order a *commission of enquiry which Israel would be forced to accept. However various media outlets report that the deal to free Arafat was done by the US promising sharon that they would block anything further on jenin in the security council. The SF Chronicle reported that Condeleeza Rice passed on a message from Bush to Sharon saying "will be with you the entire way." I think that Jenin is already slipping, or rather being pushed, in to history and - like shabra and chatilla - nothing will happen, no one will ever be prosecuted.
Well, now that operation 'defensive wall' is completed, and the IDF is out of all Palestinian cities (except Betlehem), we can conclude this thread:
There was a very heavy fight in Jenin. Stronger than any other Palestinian town. However -- there was no massacre.
Palestinian officials recently reduced the death toll from 500 to 56.
56 Palestinians and 33 Israeli soldiers killed in combat.
source:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20020501-5587072.htm
There was a very heavy fight in Jenin. Stronger than any other Palestinian town. However -- there was no massacre.
Palestinian officials recently reduced the death toll from 500 to 56.
56 Palestinians and 33 Israeli soldiers killed in combat.
source:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20020501-5587072.htm
we can 'conclude this thread' as you put it because israel has made sure that it will be years, if at all, before we find out what happened. you seem sure in yourself that you know. I have never said I know, just what looks suspicious and why someone's opinion or statements should be trusted. I read yesterday that the first prosecutions of soldiers for looting are happening - all examples of looting reported over the past month have been heavily denied. 'the IDF doesn't do that', 'the IDF are all humanitarians' - all bollocks as those of us with access to fuller information and without our collective heads in the sand knew. what's next? which soldiers will get their conscience back next?
israeli soldiers have already said that human shields were used in jenin. not 'lying Pals' but your countrymen. that is a war crime. do you seriously expect prosecutions? when has the supreme court *ever found for palestinians? the isreali government has repeatedly said 'we did nothing wrong in Jenin'.
this has been a very slick operation in the IDF's terms. very good management of propoganda, built right into the military operation. unfortunately this is within a sharonite context of 'fuck em all (and let god sort them out)' which has managed to destroy not 'the infrastructure of terrorism' but palestinian society. this was the aim. sharon and his government are as right-wing as you can go. it was and is always the israeli government that is the problem, not isrealis (although they elected it) and we made that very important distinction. the world PR problem is for sharon - only israel in his reflection. you need to get rid of sharon.
maybe in twenty years time we will know - like what sharon did in the lebanon - what happened. my problem is that - like the lebanon - no one will ever pay for what they did and hence no one will have any reason not to do it again. and then there's 'no justice, no peace'.
certainly it appears to make no difference that many israelis know full well that the entire operation could backfire, will certainly not 'end terrorism' - at most it will delay it - and has done immense damage to israel's economy (how much are your taxes going up?) - and for what? look at how sharon's wonderful policies towards arafat have backfired already? god knows how many innocents have died in order to fulfill what ammounts to: 1/ a knee jerk reaction; 2/ the policies of a right-wing fanatic.
yes, jenin is already slipping, or rather being pushed, in to history.
and that is to israel's shame.
israeli soldiers have already said that human shields were used in jenin. not 'lying Pals' but your countrymen. that is a war crime. do you seriously expect prosecutions? when has the supreme court *ever found for palestinians? the isreali government has repeatedly said 'we did nothing wrong in Jenin'.
this has been a very slick operation in the IDF's terms. very good management of propoganda, built right into the military operation. unfortunately this is within a sharonite context of 'fuck em all (and let god sort them out)' which has managed to destroy not 'the infrastructure of terrorism' but palestinian society. this was the aim. sharon and his government are as right-wing as you can go. it was and is always the israeli government that is the problem, not isrealis (although they elected it) and we made that very important distinction. the world PR problem is for sharon - only israel in his reflection. you need to get rid of sharon.
maybe in twenty years time we will know - like what sharon did in the lebanon - what happened. my problem is that - like the lebanon - no one will ever pay for what they did and hence no one will have any reason not to do it again. and then there's 'no justice, no peace'.
certainly it appears to make no difference that many israelis know full well that the entire operation could backfire, will certainly not 'end terrorism' - at most it will delay it - and has done immense damage to israel's economy (how much are your taxes going up?) - and for what? look at how sharon's wonderful policies towards arafat have backfired already? god knows how many innocents have died in order to fulfill what ammounts to: 1/ a knee jerk reaction; 2/ the policies of a right-wing fanatic.
yes, jenin is already slipping, or rather being pushed, in to history.
and that is to israel's shame.
Channel Four
13 May 2002 21:00
Dispatches: State Of Terror
Dispatches uncovers what really happened when the Israeli army entered the Jenin refugee camp and reveals shocking new evidence that suggests what took place there is part of a wider pattern of human rights abuse by Israeli soldiers.
13 May 2002 21:00
Dispatches: State Of Terror
Dispatches uncovers what really happened when the Israeli army entered the Jenin refugee camp and reveals shocking new evidence that suggests what took place there is part of a wider pattern of human rights abuse by Israeli soldiers.
This report IMHO does not bear any realistic relation to the current issues surrounding Jenin, what do you think ? They are covering up a massacre, I stongly believe this, below amounts to tit-for-tat childish stone throwing between media groups rather than war crimes, like last month.
The Jerusalem Post, May. 2, 2002
GUEST COLUMN: The Jenin Syndrome
By Raphael Israeli
On the eve of Pessah 1983, when Israel was still reeling from the trauma of Lebanon, and then- defense minister Ariel Sharon was in the eye of the Kahan Commission storm - with the entire world pointing a finger at us, a blood libel accusing Israel of "poisoning" Palestinian schoolgirls was concocted. In Jenin, teenage girls who started fainting in their classrooms without apparent reason were evacuated to hospitals. As soon as rumors of this began to spread, girls in other schools throughout the West Bank also lost consciousness and were hospitalized. Some were hospitalized twice or thrice in succession, bringing their numbers to close to 1,000.
Immediately, the Arabs accused Israel of poisoning the girls as part of a "scheme" to sterilize them. This, according to the libel, was done precisely at a time when the girls were about to get married and bear children - as part of a sinister "plan to battle against Palestinian demographic growth."
The UN, European countries and the world media jumped on the accusatory bandwagon - as they are doing today - as if they had been waiting for the occasion. Even so-called "evidence" was found by journalists to support the accusation. This "evidence" was a yellow substance on the windowsills of the Arab schools - a substance which turned out to be pine pollen.
Horrible epithets were hurled at the Jews, claiming that these people who had survived the Nazi camps were "now acting like their former persecutors."
Then, as now, the sinister scheme was attributed to Ariel Sharon, the "monster" who was seen to be pursuing a war of extermination against the Palestinians.
ISRAEL WAS as shocked as it was incredulous by this onslaught. Prof. Baruch Modan, Israel's leading epidemiologist and then director general of the Health Ministry, conducted a thorough investigation into the matter and concluded that there had been no poisoning. But foreign correspondents, under Palestinian instigation, mocked Modan's findings and questioned his professional credentials.
The Palestinians, then in their Tunisian exile, realized the propaganda bonanza inherent in their libel. Thus the supposedly "poisoned" girls writhed in pain in front of foreign TV crews, yet immediately jumped out of bed jubilantly making V signs for the Arabs (and Israeli hidden cameras) to see.
THEN, AS now, the Palestinians revelled in their success at dragging in UN institutions, other Arab and Muslim countries, and the international community to condemn Israel, before any fact-finding was done. Even Israel's greatest friend, US Ambassador to the UN Jeanne Kirkpatrick (who happened to preside over the Security Council during that month) added her castigation. This helped raise the demand for an international investigation. It is this which set the precedent that whenever the Palestinians concoct any accusation against Israel, the conscience of the international community awakens, and everyone wants to investigate.
Delegations of the Red Cross and the World Health Organization found no evidence of poisoning, yet issued vague communiques which left the issue hanging. (One can imagine how zealously they would have run to the press had they been able to dig up any shred of positive evidence.)
The Israeli reference to the fainting as mass hysteria that is common among teenage girls (during rock concerts, for example) was dismissed as ridiculous, much to the applause of the Arabs and the international press. It was only after the International Center of Disease Control in Atlanta performed a thorough investigation and confirmed the mass hysteria diagnosis that tempers began to calm down. The Red Cross, however, declared that even if there had been no actual poisoning, the girls had contracted a no less serious illness called "occupation." Sound familiar?
Evidently, no country or organization who bashed Israel relentlessly during that time found it necessary to apologize (with the exception of the New York Times, which retracted its accusations in an unnoticeable announcement on an inside page.)
As for the rest of the world, Israel will always be to blame unless it proves otherwise. And no apologies will be necessary even if it does prove otherwise. Furthermore, Israel will always be expected to cooperate with those who unjustly blame and condemn it, and any refusal on its part to submit to repeated investigations will in itself constitute evidence of guilt.
The Jenin investigation of today corresponds exactly to the Jenin Syndrome that we have already lived through. Who says that history does not repeat itself?
The author is a Professor of Middle Eastern Studies at Hebrew University. His book Poison: Modern Manifestations of the Blood Libel has just been released in the US by Lexington Books.
The Jerusalem Post, May. 2, 2002
GUEST COLUMN: The Jenin Syndrome
By Raphael Israeli
On the eve of Pessah 1983, when Israel was still reeling from the trauma of Lebanon, and then- defense minister Ariel Sharon was in the eye of the Kahan Commission storm - with the entire world pointing a finger at us, a blood libel accusing Israel of "poisoning" Palestinian schoolgirls was concocted. In Jenin, teenage girls who started fainting in their classrooms without apparent reason were evacuated to hospitals. As soon as rumors of this began to spread, girls in other schools throughout the West Bank also lost consciousness and were hospitalized. Some were hospitalized twice or thrice in succession, bringing their numbers to close to 1,000.
Immediately, the Arabs accused Israel of poisoning the girls as part of a "scheme" to sterilize them. This, according to the libel, was done precisely at a time when the girls were about to get married and bear children - as part of a sinister "plan to battle against Palestinian demographic growth."
The UN, European countries and the world media jumped on the accusatory bandwagon - as they are doing today - as if they had been waiting for the occasion. Even so-called "evidence" was found by journalists to support the accusation. This "evidence" was a yellow substance on the windowsills of the Arab schools - a substance which turned out to be pine pollen.
Horrible epithets were hurled at the Jews, claiming that these people who had survived the Nazi camps were "now acting like their former persecutors."
Then, as now, the sinister scheme was attributed to Ariel Sharon, the "monster" who was seen to be pursuing a war of extermination against the Palestinians.
ISRAEL WAS as shocked as it was incredulous by this onslaught. Prof. Baruch Modan, Israel's leading epidemiologist and then director general of the Health Ministry, conducted a thorough investigation into the matter and concluded that there had been no poisoning. But foreign correspondents, under Palestinian instigation, mocked Modan's findings and questioned his professional credentials.
The Palestinians, then in their Tunisian exile, realized the propaganda bonanza inherent in their libel. Thus the supposedly "poisoned" girls writhed in pain in front of foreign TV crews, yet immediately jumped out of bed jubilantly making V signs for the Arabs (and Israeli hidden cameras) to see.
THEN, AS now, the Palestinians revelled in their success at dragging in UN institutions, other Arab and Muslim countries, and the international community to condemn Israel, before any fact-finding was done. Even Israel's greatest friend, US Ambassador to the UN Jeanne Kirkpatrick (who happened to preside over the Security Council during that month) added her castigation. This helped raise the demand for an international investigation. It is this which set the precedent that whenever the Palestinians concoct any accusation against Israel, the conscience of the international community awakens, and everyone wants to investigate.
Delegations of the Red Cross and the World Health Organization found no evidence of poisoning, yet issued vague communiques which left the issue hanging. (One can imagine how zealously they would have run to the press had they been able to dig up any shred of positive evidence.)
The Israeli reference to the fainting as mass hysteria that is common among teenage girls (during rock concerts, for example) was dismissed as ridiculous, much to the applause of the Arabs and the international press. It was only after the International Center of Disease Control in Atlanta performed a thorough investigation and confirmed the mass hysteria diagnosis that tempers began to calm down. The Red Cross, however, declared that even if there had been no actual poisoning, the girls had contracted a no less serious illness called "occupation." Sound familiar?
Evidently, no country or organization who bashed Israel relentlessly during that time found it necessary to apologize (with the exception of the New York Times, which retracted its accusations in an unnoticeable announcement on an inside page.)
As for the rest of the world, Israel will always be to blame unless it proves otherwise. And no apologies will be necessary even if it does prove otherwise. Furthermore, Israel will always be expected to cooperate with those who unjustly blame and condemn it, and any refusal on its part to submit to repeated investigations will in itself constitute evidence of guilt.
The Jenin investigation of today corresponds exactly to the Jenin Syndrome that we have already lived through. Who says that history does not repeat itself?
The author is a Professor of Middle Eastern Studies at Hebrew University. His book Poison: Modern Manifestations of the Blood Libel has just been released in the US by Lexington Books.
T
thestrategist
Guest
Don't be ridiculous.
There are people who don't believe man landed on the moon as well and use highly pedantic, technical 'proof' as evidence.
http://www.lunatrick.com/
Is this the sort of evidence the Palestinians are going to use to prove there was a massacre?
the straightforward difference between this and the pine pollen episode is that some israeli soldiers have already confirmed war crimes (e.g. human shields). this is not a 'blood libel' and there is plenty of evidence. thankfully plenty of people other than the UN are slowly uncovering the truth and I'm sure the Dispatches team - the same one who did the Shabra and Shatilla story - will present new evidence.
T
thestrategist
Guest
PC - Get it into your skull, there was no massacre. Any evidence that comes to light now (after about 1000 journalists poured over the site and didn't find anything) is bound to be manufactured.
you want to talk about 'blood libel'?
this is the sort of stuff the American Israeli supporting right are saying:
"Yet the EU funnels vast sums to Yassir Arafat's terrorist organizations, with no checks, no standards, no accountability. That money is used to kill Jews." [http://www.andrewsullivan.com/]
and this:
US House Majority Leader Dick Armey "There are many Arab nations that have many hundreds of thousands of acres of land and--and soil and property and opportunity to create a Palestinian state. I happen to believe that the Palestinians should leave. " (he later tried to correct what he said). [ww3report.com]
this is the sort of stuff the American Israeli supporting right are saying:
"Yet the EU funnels vast sums to Yassir Arafat's terrorist organizations, with no checks, no standards, no accountability. That money is used to kill Jews." [http://www.andrewsullivan.com/]
and this:
US House Majority Leader Dick Armey "There are many Arab nations that have many hundreds of thousands of acres of land and--and soil and property and opportunity to create a Palestinian state. I happen to believe that the Palestinians should leave. " (he later tried to correct what he said). [ww3report.com]
okay mr strategist which would you prefer - 'massacre' or 'war crimes'? I suppose you'd prefer neither but deliberate killing of civilians is understood by many, including myself, as a massacre - others prefer to think of a massacre only a la rwanda, that's their semantic choice I suppose - and those '1000 journalists [who] poured over the site' have reported deliberate killing (nice, 'unbiased' ones like marie colvin) and if you think even she's a fool or biased then 'war crimes' as even isreali soldiers have said that.
as i said before - massacre? smassacre! it's words and beneath them are *crimes.
as i said before - massacre? smassacre! it's words and beneath them are *crimes.
T
thestrategist
Guest
So tell me, was it a massacre of 29 elderly Israelis (oldest was 92) at a religious feast, or was it a crime?
I dont know if that article has done it's job of convincing me that palestinians like to manipulate the truth, thinking people should consider that not every thing any of the side says is true.
One thing though, there has been so many atrocities commited in the West Bank by Israeli's that there is not much point clinging to the imaginary ones.
I suppose Isreal is resisting an enquiry because the conclusions have been made, by people like me, maybe I should think again, maybe I am not thinking.
One thing though, there has been so many atrocities commited in the West Bank by Israeli's that there is not much point clinging to the imaginary ones.
I suppose Isreal is resisting an enquiry because the conclusions have been made, by people like me, maybe I should think again, maybe I am not thinking.
TS:So tell me, was it a massacre of 29 elderly Israelis (oldest was 92) at a religious feast, or was it a crime?
yes and yes. if you now think that 29 people killed indiscriminately counts as a massacre then we're closer than you think. so far (my last information) 26 dead civilians have been positively identified from Jenin.
yesterday there were reports in israeli media of the IDF shooting dead a mother and her two children. they "regretted" it. whichever way you look at it these people have to die in order to (supposedly) secure your safety. how do you justify agreeing to so many innocents being killed within your own world view to 'keep isreali streets safe'? at what level of innocent deaths do you begin to question? i'm interested in how this is morally justified in your world?
yes and yes. if you now think that 29 people killed indiscriminately counts as a massacre then we're closer than you think. so far (my last information) 26 dead civilians have been positively identified from Jenin.
yesterday there were reports in israeli media of the IDF shooting dead a mother and her two children. they "regretted" it. whichever way you look at it these people have to die in order to (supposedly) secure your safety. how do you justify agreeing to so many innocents being killed within your own world view to 'keep isreali streets safe'? at what level of innocent deaths do you begin to question? i'm interested in how this is morally justified in your world?
T
thestrategist
Guest
PC - smart alec
1. The civilians killed in the Passover Massacre were sitting down to dinner
2. The civilians killed in Jenin were living in a war zone which was caused by their neighbors deciding to commit terror
Furthermore, I still have not yet seen autopsy reports that state categorically that the civilians were killed by the Israelis.
At least one of the Israeli soldiers was killed by friendly fire. If a highly professional army can suffer from friendly fire, then the mob that was the Jenin gunmen can have committed much more friendly fire.
1. The civilians killed in the Passover Massacre were sitting down to dinner
2. The civilians killed in Jenin were living in a war zone which was caused by their neighbors deciding to commit terror
Furthermore, I still have not yet seen autopsy reports that state categorically that the civilians were killed by the Israelis.
At least one of the Israeli soldiers was killed by friendly fire. If a highly professional army can suffer from friendly fire, then the mob that was the Jenin gunmen can have committed much more friendly fire.
Human shields, looting confirmed
Israel indirectly admits to using Palestinian civilians as human shields
by Adalah 9:02pm Wed May 8 '02
Last night, 7 May 2002, the Attorney General’s Office submitted a response to a request for an immediate injunction, filed to the Supreme Court by seven human rights organizations, to stop the Israeli army’s use of Palestinian civilians as human shields, as hostages, and for other military purposes. The State’s response implicitly confirms the Israeli army’s use of these practices.
Specifically, the State, as represented by Mike Blass, Advocate, replied as follows:
•In light of the information specified in the petition, and without admitting or denying any of the allegations, “the IDF decided to immediately
issue a decisive order … imposing an absolute ban on all of the forces in the field from using civilians … as a means to ‘humanly shield’ from fire or terrorist attacks by the Palestinian side or as hostages.”
•Regarding complaints specified in the petition involving the Israeli army’s use of Palestinian residents to enter the homes of other Palestinian residents during military operations, “it was decided in the IDF to clarify that even this activity is forbidden, in those cases in which the commander in the field thinks, that a danger to the body of the civilian might arise.
In addition, the military authorities intend to examine in the coming days the various aspects of the issue of being assisted by Palestinian residents.”
•“Furthermore, in regard to the complaints specified in the petition, it was decided to conduct within the IDF a comprehensive investigation on this issue, but naturally, there was not enough time for the respondents to do that in the time that has passed since the petition was submitted.”
•"In light of the fact that the respondents decided to immediately issue an order, as mentioned … the respondents are of the opinion that the need for
the requested injunction is moot."
The motion for injunction and the petition were filed on 5 May 2002 by Adalah, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), LAW - The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment, Physicians for Human Rights - Israel, B'Tselem, The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, and HaMoked: Center for the Defense of the Individual.
The petitioners named as respondents Yitzhak Eitan, Commander of the Israeli Army in the West Bank; Shaul Mofaz, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Army;
Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, Minister of Defense; and Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel.
In the petition, written by Adalah Staff Attorney Marwan Dalal, the seven human rights organizations provided extensive documentary evidence of the
Israeli army's abusive practices, drawing on recent reports issued by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and B'Tselem. The organizations argued that the army's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields, as hostages, and for other military purposes, is inhuman treatment and violates the right
to life, physical integrity and dignity. Further, these actions constitute grave breaches of the Geneva Convention (IV) Relative to the Protection of
Civilian Persons in Time of War (1949) or war crimes, and violate several articles of the Hague Regulations (1907).
In light of the State’s response, the seven human rights organizations will continue the proceedings in Court and demand that any use of Palestinian civilians for military purposes by the Israeli army be barred immediately.
The seven human rights organizations also stress the need that those responsible be held accountable for the grave breaches of international humanitarian law inherent in using civilians as "human shields," taking them hostage, and using them for other military purposes.
H.C. 3799/02, Adalah, et. al. v. Yitzhak Eitan, Commander of the Israeli
Army in the West Bank, et. al.
http://www.adalah.org
...
Six Israeli soldiers indicted on charges of stealing Palestinian property, money
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020508/ap_wo_en_ge/mideast_looting_2
Israel indirectly admits to using Palestinian civilians as human shields
by Adalah 9:02pm Wed May 8 '02
Last night, 7 May 2002, the Attorney General’s Office submitted a response to a request for an immediate injunction, filed to the Supreme Court by seven human rights organizations, to stop the Israeli army’s use of Palestinian civilians as human shields, as hostages, and for other military purposes. The State’s response implicitly confirms the Israeli army’s use of these practices.
Specifically, the State, as represented by Mike Blass, Advocate, replied as follows:
•In light of the information specified in the petition, and without admitting or denying any of the allegations, “the IDF decided to immediately
issue a decisive order … imposing an absolute ban on all of the forces in the field from using civilians … as a means to ‘humanly shield’ from fire or terrorist attacks by the Palestinian side or as hostages.”
•Regarding complaints specified in the petition involving the Israeli army’s use of Palestinian residents to enter the homes of other Palestinian residents during military operations, “it was decided in the IDF to clarify that even this activity is forbidden, in those cases in which the commander in the field thinks, that a danger to the body of the civilian might arise.
In addition, the military authorities intend to examine in the coming days the various aspects of the issue of being assisted by Palestinian residents.”
•“Furthermore, in regard to the complaints specified in the petition, it was decided to conduct within the IDF a comprehensive investigation on this issue, but naturally, there was not enough time for the respondents to do that in the time that has passed since the petition was submitted.”
•"In light of the fact that the respondents decided to immediately issue an order, as mentioned … the respondents are of the opinion that the need for
the requested injunction is moot."
The motion for injunction and the petition were filed on 5 May 2002 by Adalah, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), LAW - The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment, Physicians for Human Rights - Israel, B'Tselem, The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, and HaMoked: Center for the Defense of the Individual.
The petitioners named as respondents Yitzhak Eitan, Commander of the Israeli Army in the West Bank; Shaul Mofaz, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Army;
Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, Minister of Defense; and Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel.
In the petition, written by Adalah Staff Attorney Marwan Dalal, the seven human rights organizations provided extensive documentary evidence of the
Israeli army's abusive practices, drawing on recent reports issued by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and B'Tselem. The organizations argued that the army's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields, as hostages, and for other military purposes, is inhuman treatment and violates the right
to life, physical integrity and dignity. Further, these actions constitute grave breaches of the Geneva Convention (IV) Relative to the Protection of
Civilian Persons in Time of War (1949) or war crimes, and violate several articles of the Hague Regulations (1907).
In light of the State’s response, the seven human rights organizations will continue the proceedings in Court and demand that any use of Palestinian civilians for military purposes by the Israeli army be barred immediately.
The seven human rights organizations also stress the need that those responsible be held accountable for the grave breaches of international humanitarian law inherent in using civilians as "human shields," taking them hostage, and using them for other military purposes.
H.C. 3799/02, Adalah, et. al. v. Yitzhak Eitan, Commander of the Israeli
Army in the West Bank, et. al.
http://www.adalah.org
...
Six Israeli soldiers indicted on charges of stealing Palestinian property, money
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020508/ap_wo_en_ge/mideast_looting_2
anarchistnurse
New Member
The original posting mentioned " several score " instead of hundreds. I know these facts are hard to find out. But a score is defined as 20. Several could mean 3 - how ever many. Obviously more than a couple ( 2 ). But less than a lot ( more than several ). I know there will always be arguments about counting dead bodies. Witness the historical debate about the holocaust. But maybe 1 is too much.
Similar threads
