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NO "Not clean" war - BUT CLASS WAR

Am I going fucking nuts or is this totally bananas for two reasons: firstly, he's asking me if I'm a bigot out of nowhere and secondly, because I've *answered* the fucking question pretty clearly, I thought.

Does "I've used the word "Jew" thousands of times, always to describe a Jewish person. I don't (knowingly) make racist or bigoted remarks because I'm not a racist or a bigot." sound fucking ambigious? Apparantly so, though I thought it was pretty clear. No, I don't and never have used the word "Jew" or any varient of it in a pejorative sense, and if you're calling me a bigot on no evidence and for no reason in a cheap attempt to mudsling, you can fuck off, you cunt.

How did this issue get on to me? Why won't either of you respond to any of the substantive questions/rebuttals put to you? Is it because you realise your arguments are ill-informed and morally bankrupt and want to distract attention?

Does anyone else follow this line of thought in any way?
 
The word Jew is not a racist word. If he had said Jews are inhuman or Jews are barbaric then it might be different. To say the Zionist government is barbaric is not racist either.

edited to add

To say Arabs are inhuman or barbaric by nature or derivatives as I have heard many times from rednecks here is probably racist.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
Nemo, you cannot be serious about your statement concerning Saddam (he is "afraid of being invaded"). I cannot think of anyone wanting to invade Irak at this time...could this have far more to do with the following facts:
1) saddam is known as the main aggressor in the region, as the Kurds, Kuweitis, and Iranians would tell you
2)He only has a less than casual interest in his own people and is quite willing to let them starve if this would achieve his propaganda aim. The fact alone that he has "been bombed for the last ten years" by US and British claims, and that these bombings are nothing more than a merry-go round of bombing and rebuilding the same old radar sites would seem to indicate this. It would be simpler (not for him, but for his people) if he just got on with the weapons inspection program and quit taunting the US, the British, and indeed the UN, but, (and I have to agree with others on this message board there), this is largely a giant ego clash between leaders at this stage of the game... :(
 
Is use if the word "jew" as an insult familiar to you? How about "kike", "yid", etc.?

Do your friends use it? Your father?

Why am I asking this? Because the debate turned to Israel, and I, and most Jewish Israelis have a theory about why the left likes to criticise Israel so much.
 
Patel: would the immigration policies of Israel not counteract the demographic issue? It seems to me they have been quite aware of this problem for some time...althought the number of "imports" might not be able to match the ("Palestinians who are breeding like rabbits"). I do have to say that I find this a strange choice of words, but, as it seems that everyone here is being a little bit sensitive here at the moment (certainly concerning bigotry and racism) I should probably not even point that out.. ;)
 
What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, I have heard crude stereotyping of Jewish people, just as I have about black people and Indians (for example). I would agree with you that there are plenty of pig-ignorant bigots out there (of all cultures and groups - you've heard the expression "Arab work", haven't you?), but I'm not one of them and I resent being tarred with that brush. And you had a girlfriend who hated Pharisees (Pharisees? How the fuck can you hate a bunch of people that have been dead for centuries, let alone a whole group of people? WTF was she on?) - and this is supposed to condemn the whole of "my" society (despite the fact you have no clue what my society is, nor my background, nor how I fill my working week) to being terminally prejudiced against Jews in every form, is it?

"being anti-Jewish is ingrained in Western culture, and it molds much of the anti-Israel debate/writing that goes on, not just here but in the BBC and the Guardian, for example."

I think this is absolutely pathetic, untrue and a crude and cynical attempt to dodge the issue. First of all, the BBC is exceptionally unbalanced in its reporting of Palestine - towards the state of Israel. Secondly, the Guardian is by no means an anti-Semitic rag, though it is certainly anti-radical Zionist and anti-Israeli right (a position which I support entirely).

Dodgy fascists always respond to any criticism of their hateful bile as bigoted with "ooh, well any time you criticise Israel, they always call you anti-Semitic" when the reason why they are being criticised is because they are actually anti-Semitic. I had always thought it was fascist bullshit until now, when I find myself in the un-fucking-believeable position of having to explain why I'm not an anti-semite despite the fact I have not and never will may anti-semitic comments or hold those views. Why are you more interested in slinging shit than addressing the issues?

I'm not being a bigot, anti-semite or racist when I (or anyone else I agree with) criticise the Israeli government, because I'm not driven by those motives. It's no more bigoted to suggest that Ariel Sharon is a cynical warmonger than it is to say Thabo Mbeki is an idiotic shitbag, General Musharaf is a authoritarian arsehole or that Aleks Lukashenka is a dictatorial killer.

Why can't you face the facts and realise that the reason why the Israeli government is unpopular amongst clued-up people is not at all because they are Jewish but because they are a bunch of murderous thugs who have brutally cleansed and illegally occupied huge bits of Palestine for 30+ years?
 
"Do your friends use it? Your father?"

No. Fuck you, you pathetic shitrag. Don't fucking try and make me, my friends or my family out to be bigots just because you don't agree with my views.
 
Now this is getting pretty stupid. You have a problem with critisism of Israel and turn it on its head with accusations of racism. Pathetic is the word that springs to mind. Jews are not a race it is a religion. Anyone can join or marry into it. Idiot.

edited to add

One race the human race.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
So anyone who dilikes the Israelis is cluded up, but if you have no problem with Israelis you aren't, and all Israelis are murderous thugs, whereas all Arabs are I assume peace loving social workers who never murder innocent people....what utter bollocks.

saying Israelis are all murderous thugs is the same as sying all muslims are murderous thugs NOT true in either case.

So far I've been called simple, right wing and a dickhead wonder what I get called next, as if it matters.

Some of you just can't face that other people can have a different viewpoint, you seem to think that only your viewpoint is valid and usually backed up with selective biased information.

Peace, love and light to you all

mobymonster
 
There are many left of center Israelis and many left of center Palestinians. The fact is the real extremists are the Zionist led government. The Israelis are occupying palestinian agreed territories against International law! They are the equivelent of the Ulster unionists. You are supporting extremists you wanker.

Israel has always had a very strong left tradition amongst ordinairy people. So you are as usual talking complete rubbish.
 
Rasrave,

About the breeding like rabbits point, it is Palestinians themselves who are saying this to me - literally. I go to Jerusalem and the Occupied territories regularly and have no qualmns about repeating it to the rest of the group. As fellow Muslims, they wouldn't mind me saying it I'm sure.

As regards the demographic time bomb, Israel is trying to crowd out the Palestinians by importing cheap workers from abroad, and constantly trying to get Jews to migrate to Israel. The break up of the Soviet Union provided one such opportunity, but these are becoming rarer. You also have to take into consideration that most people find better places to go to than Israel - America, for example. A lot of young Israelis are leaving to live there. And also the fact that a lot of Palestinians are very good workers, very cheap and can speak Hebrew fluently, unlike most newly arrived Russian immigrants.

This is why we'll see Israelis becoming increasingly frustrated and desperate to maintain an advantage over the Arabs. But it can't last forever, especially after 53 years of deep hostility towards the State. As one notable Arab commentator said: 'The Zionist experiment has failed'.

And on the point about racism, one of the most underhand and cheap tricks that the Israeli lobby plays is to link criticism of Israel and Zionism with the hatred of Jews. A sure-fire way to get any journalist to stop writing critical stuff about Israel is to harp on about racism and 'anti-semitism' as if attacking Israel's racist policies could ever be anti-semitic. There is still deep guilt in the West about the way that Jews were treated in Europe and Israelis use this to their full advantage.

But again, the danger of overplaying this card means that people are beginning to be numbed to the charge, which is why you'll hear increasing criticism, even from within the States, about Israel's policies and US support of them. Israel thought it could use September 11th as the most brilliant PR event that has ever happened to them - a member of the Israeli regime openly came out and said it. Unfortunately for them, it has backfired and even Bush is now talking about a Palestinian State.

Hope this clears a few things up.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
KittyKat,

So as I have a different viewpoint I'm a wanker, do you really think that I give a flying fuck what you think of me.

I think the IRA & PLO are extremists and as that isn't your viewpoint that, using your criteria makes you a wanker and as usual spouting crap.

You are fun.

I'm off so will answer any more name calling in the morning, sleep well.

mobymonster
 
JWH: So I'm a cunt, eh? That really rubs me the wrong way...

If you've never used a racial or religious epithet, you are the first white (or anything) person I have come across of such sterling character. If you aren't lying, to us or yourself, my hat is off to you.

However.

I agree that disliking Israeli policy is not synonymous with anti semitism. Jews can make mistakes and bad policy decisions just like everyone else. But how can you deny that the Jews are probably the most vilified people in Western culture?

I recall seeing two cars jockeying for a parking spot. As it turned out, one driver was an orthodox Jew, the other a common garden variety gentile. The Jew yelled out something about the other guy being a jerk, to which the gentile replied "Yeah, well you crucified him, didn't you?!"

We forget that in the dominant religion of the West, the Jews are the people who killed the son of God. Now, as an atheist, all of this is of no consequence to me, but to all those good Christians over the last 2000 years, it has provided a good and identifiable scapegoat.

In my opinion, to deny the existence of far reaching anti semitism in our culture is to aid and abet it.

BTW, even Jews can be racist. Do you recall the flap created a few years ago when a bunch of Ethiopian Black Jews tried to emigrate to Israel? As you know, Israel makes a policy of accepting Jews from the world over. However, they had to do some good hard thinking when all those black Jews showed up on the doorstep.

Damn complicated world again...
 
I think the Italians had something to do with crucifying people rather than the Jews. And if you are referring to the crowd that would rather free a thief etc.'. then they were more likely urged on by the clerics who wanted the trouble maker dead.

edited to add

ya cunt

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
I always thought Pilate...washed his hands, sealed his fate...

Uh, what religion did those clerics belong to?
 
Johnny,

If there is a competition for the most vilified people, it has to be the Afro-Carribeans, most of whose first experiences of Europe and the Americas was through slavery.
 
Yeah, a lot of people hate them coloreds, but Colonial Europe (and Islam) only started enslaving and dehumanizing them about 500 years ago or so.

The Jews have been getting it for awhile. Remember the Crusaders? Sorta like today; heading to the Middle East for battle. Only difference is, on the way, the Crusaders would stop in Poland, Hungary, etc, to slaughter the local Jews in the ghettoes, for a little sword practice..

Europeans have been dehumanizing and demonizing Jews since, well, since the death of Christ...
 
Hopefully, this won't turn into an argument for a contest to see who has suffered the most and has become the most oppressed victim.

Jew, Black, Muslim, Vietnamese, Arab and many, many other people that we haven't mentioned have been innocent victims at the hands of Christians and of each other since the beginning of time. We cannot mark out a single group for special treatment or give them an award for:

'Gee you poor victims - you're DEFINITELY the most oppressed people in the whole of history!'

Because that denies the suffering of other groups of people. God does not measure suffering in numbers. If so, then we have to accord special status to Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda, also slaughtered in their millions very recently.

For, if you remember the Crusaders, then you have to remember that they were fighting the Islamic infidel (the very word 'infidel' is an original crusader term). Jews were slaughtered along the way, thats for sure, just as Jews were slaughtered when the Christian Spaniards moved against the Islamic rulers of Spain.

Whatever suffering people have been caused does NOT excuse a suffering they inflict upon other innocent people. It might explain why they do it (abused people after all, are more likely to become abusers themselves) but it does NOT justify it. Otherwise you would have to defend and justify the actions of a Palestinian suicide bomber, for example.
 
I'm not here to justify, just to understand and explain, if possible.

The original discussion involved the creation of Israel, the mindset of Israel, and reasons why the US may be allied with Israel. Thus arose a discussion of the persecution of the Jews.

I do not agree that a discussion of the persecution of one group, denies the persecution of another. It is just that that particular group, the Jews, is the one in our discussion spotlight, as it were.

It is important to understand why things happen, but understanding is not acceptance or justification.

For example, I believe there is an urgent need to understand the rationale behind the Sept. 11 attack. Through understanding might come an answer, or answers, on how to stop it from happening again.

But even if I come to an understanding of the motives of the bombers, I still firmly believe in punishment for their horrific act.

After the trial of a thief or murderer, we may understand what was going through his mind when he committed the crime, but we retain another understanding, that public security requires that sentence be passed.
 
I believe that the crime of september 11th deserves punishment. I think we all do. We differ on the specifics of this war, interpretation of history and political belief.
 
JWH, Nemo, kissthecat, etc.

I guess I owe everyone an explanation!

I am one of the leftist Israeli's that kissthecat mentioned. I very strongly dislike Sharon, the settlers and the Israeli right.

However, like most leftist Israeli's (especially after Intifada II began), I don't have any faith in Arafat and the Palestinians.

When I strongly attacked Islamic terrorists, I was called a racist and a bigot, in some extremely strong terms.

Excuse me! I attacked the Islamic culture of repression! Who can deny it exists? How can that be turned into racist hatred of the Arab/Muslim people? Why does this brand me as racist?

So, maybe with success, I showed you what it felt like to be branded racist (as a tool to discredit an argument).

On the other hand, I do believe that ingrained anti-semistism motivates the left (consciously and unconsciously).

NV

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: nutritional_value ]
 
"saying Israelis are all murderous thugs is the same as sying all muslims are murderous thugs NOT true in either case."

Yes, dear, that's right. Anyone who said that all Israelis were murderous thugs *would* be talking bigoted rubbish. But that's not why I said - I said the Israeli government behaved like/are murderous thugs, which is very different. You may have to learn to make the distinction between peoples and the governments that represent/oppress them.

I think you are simple. And that's being charitable.
 
"About the breeding like rabbits point, it is Palestinians themselves who are saying this to me - literally."

Because that's what poor people do - when you live in financially precarious circumstances, the best thing you can do is have a lot of kids because they don't cost too much *extra* in the short term but in the long term provide you with loads of free labour and hopefully (if you don't piss them off too much) will look after you and keep you fed and sheltered when you're old. Which is especially a concern if you live somewhere where the authorities deny you decent housing, welfare and working conditions.

There's a huge literature on this and the "demographic transition" that generally happens when people feel a bit more secure in their quality of life.

(Also worth noting that according to some psephological research I was reading after the last set of Israeli elections, it was the new Soviet immigrants that were especially attracted to Sharon and the rightist parties, which stands to reason: first of all, they rarely have had *any* contact with Palestinians or authentic Middle Eastern culture up to that point so they are extra-susceptible to crude stereotyping and misrepresentation of history; secondly, it's that class of not brilliantly educated Russophones with poor business experience and a worse knowledge of Hebrew that are Palestinians' main competitors in the labour market - so of course they are going to be against any sort of regularisation.

If the Russophones get paid legal wages and speak Hebrew badly (ie more expensive and less communicable than the Palestinians) then the only advantage they have is that they don't have to commute for two or three hours every morning and get harassed at checkpoints. If that goes, then why would anyone hire one of them?

"to deny the existence of far reaching anti semitism in our culture is to aid and abet it"

What the cunting hell are you talking about, you self-righteous moron? First of all, we don't share a culture (if you're Canadian - and you don't even know what I am). Secondly, that arsehole nutritional value was making out that all "Westerners" and lefties especially were anti-Semites, which explained why the Israeli government's behaviour got so much abuse, to which I replied there certainly is a lot of prejudice in my society, but unfortunately for you, that's not the reason why Sharon et al is so unpopular.

In what way is this denying, aiding or abetting fuckwits that spout anti-Jewish bullshit?

"a lot of people hate them coloreds"

"Coloureds" - that's a rather quaint word, isn't it?

"I do believe that ingrained anti-semitism motivates the left (consciously and unconsciously)."

Oh, grow up, will you? Now that you've accepted that there was no substance to your fucking insulting accusations which proved nothing except you're an idiot trying to distract debate from the real which unfortunately run counter to your beliefs/interests, will you be even more mature and accept that the reason why the Israeli state is so unpopular is not because its critics are all anti-Semitic, but because it behaves in unconsienable ways?

Some of this rubbish you're coming out with is pure bananas stereotyping and bigotry: Palestinians are ingrained with hate for Jews, Europeans are ingrained with hate for Jews and that's why Israel gets criticised, Jews are ingrained with paranoia - just throw in "Chinese are untrustworthy" and "Africans are lazy" and you'll have the full set! So let me repeat:

the characterisation of any group of people as being ingrained with hate or paranoia is both racist (because it denies that group of people's ability to think rational) and unhelpful in understanding the situation (because it ignores the concrete political, economic and military roots and causes of conflict).
 
Johnny,

We all believe that whoever carried out September 11th and is still alive should be punished. That is not in question.

You mention the need for understanding Israel. I agree with you on that. Just as there is a need for understanding the hostitlity that everyone in the Middle East has for Israel, and America's support of it.
 
Nutritional_value,

You accuse the 'Islamic culture' of repression, as if there was such a thing as Islamic culture.

I am a Muslim and a practising one too. My religion does not allow me to make the same patently offensive stereotypes and assumptions that you have made. If I was to make those sort of narrow assumptions, then I would have to say that all Jews are Christ killers who, judging by what Zionists are doing to Palestinians, deserved to get gassed.

Does that sound offensive? Now you know how offensive you sound to other people.

Don't judge Muslims by what a few Palestinians do and then you can afford to accuse people who judge Jews by what Ariel Sharon and all those who voted for him, do.

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
Perhaps what is one of the more disturbing things going on here is that Nutritional Value considers him/herself to be a Leftist.
But apparently one of those kind of petit-Nationalist Lefties who supports ID cards and serves in the Army and supports oppressive Government security measures and doesn't have any faith in the Palestinians.

I think maybe NV that you need to compare what you espouse in practice with what you claim to be your political position, because they don't match up. Perhaps you need to be more honest with yourself and admit that you're not any sort of Leftist at all.

All this business about people who hate Pharisees (that's a fucking corker that is!) or people who shout abuse about crucifying jesus, is a complete and utter waste of space - these people are quite obviously stupid pricks with nothing better to do with their time. They're irrelevant throw-backs, surely you can base your arguments on better stuff than that.
 
NV, if you are a leftist, then anti-semitism must be a 'strong motivating factor' for you too, unless you would like to retract such an absurd statement. It is the right, far more than the left (although I will admit that there are exceptions) where anti-semitism is king. Anti-semitism is terrible. The holocaust was terrible. Pogroms in centuries past were terrible, but the Jews have not been the only group to suffer. Now, if we are agreed that Sharon and his government are a load of thugs by and large, then why do you condemn us for saying it? As someone else (I forget who) said, if Israel and the US keep on regarding any criticism of the Israeli government, and more specifically Zionism, as racism, then people will become desensitised to true racism and that would be much worse. I will freely admit that there is still a lot of prejudice of all kinds around in every society, but invoking that prejudice when it is not taking place will not help in the slightest.

Mobymonster, people in glass houses etc. Given what you have been saying, is it any wonder that people are pissed off?

PEACE TO ALL!
 
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