NO "Not clean" war - BUT CLASS WAR
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J
johnwisehammer
Guest
Of course there are wrong opinions - such as those founded in ignorance, fear or cynicism.
"All those displaced Jews had nowhere to go. Maybe US and UK feel a little guilty about that, and are now aiding the Israelis."
Or maybe the US, UK and France were pretty anti-semitic themselves and didn't want "Hebraic interests" (as Churchill put it) coming to live as refugees in their countries, so decided to farm them out to a convenient protectorate on the other side of the continent at the expense of the local population?
"Also don't forget; even without Palestine, Arabs hate Jews, and want them dead."
I'm sorry, but this is ignorant, racist shit. Ignorant becasue it ignores the fact that up until the 1910s and the beginnings of the Hebrew Labour campaign and heightened immigration from East Europe, Jews and other Palestinians lived side by side perfectly happily; ignorant because it conflates Arab with Palestinian; ignorant because it ignores the fact that it's not only Arabs that are pissed off at Israeli occupation. It's racist becasue it paints Arabs as a terminally bloodthirsty bunch of genocidal maniacs against whom "European values" have to be protected.
"All those displaced Jews had nowhere to go. Maybe US and UK feel a little guilty about that, and are now aiding the Israelis."
Or maybe the US, UK and France were pretty anti-semitic themselves and didn't want "Hebraic interests" (as Churchill put it) coming to live as refugees in their countries, so decided to farm them out to a convenient protectorate on the other side of the continent at the expense of the local population?
"Also don't forget; even without Palestine, Arabs hate Jews, and want them dead."
I'm sorry, but this is ignorant, racist shit. Ignorant becasue it ignores the fact that up until the 1910s and the beginnings of the Hebrew Labour campaign and heightened immigration from East Europe, Jews and other Palestinians lived side by side perfectly happily; ignorant because it conflates Arab with Palestinian; ignorant because it ignores the fact that it's not only Arabs that are pissed off at Israeli occupation. It's racist becasue it paints Arabs as a terminally bloodthirsty bunch of genocidal maniacs against whom "European values" have to be protected.
K
kissthecat
Guest
Agreed. Racism that is so ingrained they don't even realise it's there. There is one race, the human race.
J
Johnny Canuck
Guest
Kissthe... Isn't one of the advantages of our societies, the fact that they are fluid and responsive to change? I think this is what happens in an open society; people are exposed to a lot of different stimuli,etc., and they pick and choose. Maybe they won't choose something you or I like, but I don't think the answer is to physically attack the source of the (noxious) stimuli. Like I said before, I'm not prepared to kill or die for Baywatch.
If the people in your country are becoming over Americanized in thought, etc, maybe you should examine their own education process, exposure to their own culture, etc.
Do you want the equivalent of the French Academy, that tries (unsuccessfully) to sanitize the French Language of all foreign influences? I personally like the free flow of ideas.
And which influences do you want to reject? What is the best 'pure' England? That of Elizabeth I?
p.s. We in Canada are exposed to way too much Benny Hill, Coronation Street, and Absolutely Fabulous, and I still don't want to drop a bomb on you..
If the people in your country are becoming over Americanized in thought, etc, maybe you should examine their own education process, exposure to their own culture, etc.
Do you want the equivalent of the French Academy, that tries (unsuccessfully) to sanitize the French Language of all foreign influences? I personally like the free flow of ideas.
And which influences do you want to reject? What is the best 'pure' England? That of Elizabeth I?
p.s. We in Canada are exposed to way too much Benny Hill, Coronation Street, and Absolutely Fabulous, and I still don't want to drop a bomb on you..
K
kissthecat
Guest
Apart from ab fab I can see your point. I wouldn't wish the other two on any other poor saps.
Well sure I like a mixture in life. Life here would be pretty boring otherwise. But it is deeper than that. There is no REAL choice. People go by their pockets and if the stuff is cheap and cheerful it seems good.
The price we pay is much higher in reality. Cheap labour in the third world making Nikes shoes and T shirts for a pittance for instance. In our shops they sell for huge sums in comparison to what the workers were paid.
Third world farmers forced to grow crops for export for the multi nationals and told what seeds to use and what chemicals to buy so we can lift it off the supermarket shelves and poison ourselves with god knows what.
Our schools and hospitals and local services handed over to private institutions (I hear Tony Soprano is putting in a bid for our waste management systems).
edited spellin
[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
Well sure I like a mixture in life. Life here would be pretty boring otherwise. But it is deeper than that. There is no REAL choice. People go by their pockets and if the stuff is cheap and cheerful it seems good.
The price we pay is much higher in reality. Cheap labour in the third world making Nikes shoes and T shirts for a pittance for instance. In our shops they sell for huge sums in comparison to what the workers were paid.
Third world farmers forced to grow crops for export for the multi nationals and told what seeds to use and what chemicals to buy so we can lift it off the supermarket shelves and poison ourselves with god knows what.
Our schools and hospitals and local services handed over to private institutions (I hear Tony Soprano is putting in a bid for our waste management systems).
edited spellin
[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
J
Johnny Canuck
Guest
You said it: the people vote with their pocketbook etc. They choose, albeit for bad reasons. English culture, choices, etc. exist, but aren't chosen.
With respect to Third World labour, true. But, that isn't the fault of americans only, but also of the people in your country etc. who vote with their pocketbooks.
I know this will be popular, but here goes: Why should Nike pay the same wage to workers in Kuala Lumpur as they do to those in Salem, Oregon? Why should they not pay the going rate, plus some premium, to local workers, based on local wage rates. I suspect that the wages paid by these multinationals are competitive in those markets, and the people who work there make a living wage that helps feed their family, and is better than the starvation, etc., that would be the likely alternative.
As for your hospitals, is privatization possibly the result of profligate deficit spending by Labour governments? Just asking.
And even so, does any of this justify Sept. 11?
With respect to Third World labour, true. But, that isn't the fault of americans only, but also of the people in your country etc. who vote with their pocketbooks.
I know this will be popular, but here goes: Why should Nike pay the same wage to workers in Kuala Lumpur as they do to those in Salem, Oregon? Why should they not pay the going rate, plus some premium, to local workers, based on local wage rates. I suspect that the wages paid by these multinationals are competitive in those markets, and the people who work there make a living wage that helps feed their family, and is better than the starvation, etc., that would be the likely alternative.
As for your hospitals, is privatization possibly the result of profligate deficit spending by Labour governments? Just asking.
And even so, does any of this justify Sept. 11?
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
None of that justifies September 11th.
But when America tells Israel that it never had a better friend than America (Ari Fleischer) whilst American rockets are slamming into Palestinian homes, American bullets are shooting Palestinian children and American money is funding fully armed extremist Jewish settlers on Palestinian land with the full backing of the Israeli Army itself funded by American tax dollars, then you have to wonder if this is one reason why America should be a target.
The other reasons being Iraq, Libya, Sudan and so on. And now we can add Afghanistan to that list.
But when America tells Israel that it never had a better friend than America (Ari Fleischer) whilst American rockets are slamming into Palestinian homes, American bullets are shooting Palestinian children and American money is funding fully armed extremist Jewish settlers on Palestinian land with the full backing of the Israeli Army itself funded by American tax dollars, then you have to wonder if this is one reason why America should be a target.
The other reasons being Iraq, Libya, Sudan and so on. And now we can add Afghanistan to that list.
J
Johnny Canuck
Guest
Give me a history lesson: who were the 'Arab Palestinians'; were they a state? Would I be wrong if I thought that the Arab Palestinian 'nationalist' movement was born after the 1967 Six Day War?
Would I be wrong if I thought that the beginning of the modern 'Zionist' movement (repatriation of Jews to Palestine) began in the 1880s?
Does the Koran say "Believers, take neither Christian nor Jew for your friends" (Sura 60:8-9)? Could such a line, written into one's holy book, promote hatred? Is it racist to ask this question?
Has anyone read Mark Twain's 'Innocents Abroad'?
Would I be wrong if I thought that the beginning of the modern 'Zionist' movement (repatriation of Jews to Palestine) began in the 1880s?
Does the Koran say "Believers, take neither Christian nor Jew for your friends" (Sura 60:8-9)? Could such a line, written into one's holy book, promote hatred? Is it racist to ask this question?
Has anyone read Mark Twain's 'Innocents Abroad'?
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
I don't know about after 1967, but Arab Palestinians consider themselves as Arabs. At least the ones I've spoken to are not nationalist. The ones I've spoken to don't place any emphasis on the modern borders of the Occupied Territories. Nor even that of Mandate Palestine. Historically, that area was linked to Syria, as was Lebanon.
Under the charter of the League of Nations (precursor of the UN) Palestine was defined as an entity which was under the trust of the Ottomans in Turkey for the benefit of the Arabs.
Zionism is a relatively modern movement, historically speaking.
I wouldn't say it was necessarily racist to misquote the Quran, deliberately or otherwise. But it is idiotic (if negligent or reckless) and shows either ignorance or a willingness to slur the religion (if deliberate). That particular Sura can be translated as:
[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.
A good lessons for Palestinians and Afghans there, methinks.
To see how Muslims, Jews and Christians used to get on together (according to the Sura above) read this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=95799
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
Under the charter of the League of Nations (precursor of the UN) Palestine was defined as an entity which was under the trust of the Ottomans in Turkey for the benefit of the Arabs.
Zionism is a relatively modern movement, historically speaking.
I wouldn't say it was necessarily racist to misquote the Quran, deliberately or otherwise. But it is idiotic (if negligent or reckless) and shows either ignorance or a willingness to slur the religion (if deliberate). That particular Sura can be translated as:
[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.
A good lessons for Palestinians and Afghans there, methinks.
To see how Muslims, Jews and Christians used to get on together (according to the Sura above) read this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=95799
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
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Johnny Canuck
Guest
A little bit more: just so no one feels left out: Comments on Jews from other sources:
Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism): "Exhortation Against the Jews" Feb 15, 1546: "The Book of Esther is dear to the Jews, it is so well in line with their bloody and poisonous sentiment. There is no pedople under the sun so avid of revenge, so bloodthirsty, believing itself to be God's people merely in order to strangle and immolate the heathens. Know, Christian, that next to the devil thou hast no enemy more cruel, more venomous nad violent than a true Jew."
How about Voltaire: From "Juif", an article in the Dictionnaire Philosophique: "In short, we find in them only and ignorant and barbarous people, who have long united the most sordid avarice with the most detestable...."(you get the point)
And you wonder why the Israelis get a little paranoid and heavy handed. For the last two thousand years, just about everyone in Europe and the Middle East has been trying to wipe them out. No wonder they get a little exercised in their defence of Israel... What would you do in their place?
Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism): "Exhortation Against the Jews" Feb 15, 1546: "The Book of Esther is dear to the Jews, it is so well in line with their bloody and poisonous sentiment. There is no pedople under the sun so avid of revenge, so bloodthirsty, believing itself to be God's people merely in order to strangle and immolate the heathens. Know, Christian, that next to the devil thou hast no enemy more cruel, more venomous nad violent than a true Jew."
How about Voltaire: From "Juif", an article in the Dictionnaire Philosophique: "In short, we find in them only and ignorant and barbarous people, who have long united the most sordid avarice with the most detestable...."(you get the point)
And you wonder why the Israelis get a little paranoid and heavy handed. For the last two thousand years, just about everyone in Europe and the Middle East has been trying to wipe them out. No wonder they get a little exercised in their defence of Israel... What would you do in their place?
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
I can understand a bit of that. But there have been similar sentiments against Muslims too. Voltaire waxed lyrical about the Prophet, who he tried to compare to the Devil. Muslims, too, have been at the offending end of Crusades against them.
But you would naver get a Muslim who would try to claim land in the way that Zionists have. For example, I am a British Muslim. Of Indian origin. But I would never claim any part of Saudi Arabia because it is the place of Makkah and Madinah, the two Muslim holy places. These places are Arab places, whether those Arabs are Muslim, Christian (as in Jerusalem), or Jew (as in Jerusalem and Baghdad).
But you would naver get a Muslim who would try to claim land in the way that Zionists have. For example, I am a British Muslim. Of Indian origin. But I would never claim any part of Saudi Arabia because it is the place of Makkah and Madinah, the two Muslim holy places. These places are Arab places, whether those Arabs are Muslim, Christian (as in Jerusalem), or Jew (as in Jerusalem and Baghdad).
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
Actually, I'll clarify that last statement a bit.
There are some extremists who are also Muslim who claim that because Muslims will never be accepted in Western society, they should go and live in an Islamic State somewhere.
This is exactly what the Jewish extremist Zionist movement said in Europe in 1880.
The difference between the two however is that the Muslims claim that this land should be land which is already populated by Muslims and that Muslims themselves should strive to make this land purely Islamic. In other words, have a revolution in Saudi Arabia or some other Muslim place.
There are some extremists who are also Muslim who claim that because Muslims will never be accepted in Western society, they should go and live in an Islamic State somewhere.
This is exactly what the Jewish extremist Zionist movement said in Europe in 1880.
The difference between the two however is that the Muslims claim that this land should be land which is already populated by Muslims and that Muslims themselves should strive to make this land purely Islamic. In other words, have a revolution in Saudi Arabia or some other Muslim place.
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
Lastly, I'll point out that Zionism and other extreme movements go completely against orthodox religious thought.
In the 1920's, when the Zionist movement was gathering apace, the most respected Rabbis came out and damned it. They repeated that Judaism was a universal religion and shouldn't be defined by a piece of land.
And prior to the partition of India in 1947 into modern India and Pakistan, the Muslim Ulema similarly opposed it on the same basis. That Islam was a universal religion and saw no boundaries in land.
In the 1920's, when the Zionist movement was gathering apace, the most respected Rabbis came out and damned it. They repeated that Judaism was a universal religion and shouldn't be defined by a piece of land.
And prior to the partition of India in 1947 into modern India and Pakistan, the Muslim Ulema similarly opposed it on the same basis. That Islam was a universal religion and saw no boundaries in land.
K
kissthecat
Guest
The fact that people vote with their pockets by and large johhny is of course a fact of life. Most people would rather things were cheaper. But when these things are in the shops they don't advertise where they came from or who laboured on them. If people were really aware of these things then they might buy an alternative more expensive product. I do this all the time and so do a lot of well informed people. So that is a great factor that should not be discounted. Unfortunately the shop workers rarely know where their products come from so many of the things I buy are bought in ignorance. I don't like that but until fair trade becomes a reality it will continue...
J
Johnny Canuck
Guest
Short and sweet, gotta get home...
Patel, based on the history of the 20th century, looks like those Jewish extremists of the 1880s were right to want to get out of Europe...
You know what the Diaspora was. If the Jews are going to go home, wouldn't the natural place be the land of Abraham and David? I hate to sink to this kind of silly argument, but weren't Jews inhabiting the area about 2000 years before the birth of the Prophet Mohammed?
And Patel, what about my history lesson? What Arab Palestinian state existed there before 1947. Who were these self governing Palestinian Arabs? Didn't Arab Palestinian Nationalism start after 1967?
One last thing; isn't Yasser Arafat an Egyptian?
Patel, based on the history of the 20th century, looks like those Jewish extremists of the 1880s were right to want to get out of Europe...
You know what the Diaspora was. If the Jews are going to go home, wouldn't the natural place be the land of Abraham and David? I hate to sink to this kind of silly argument, but weren't Jews inhabiting the area about 2000 years before the birth of the Prophet Mohammed?
And Patel, what about my history lesson? What Arab Palestinian state existed there before 1947. Who were these self governing Palestinian Arabs? Didn't Arab Palestinian Nationalism start after 1967?
One last thing; isn't Yasser Arafat an Egyptian?
Nemo, you are answering my question for me...
a)The Un/rest of the world is at a loss as what to do at this stage of the game...which gives great ammo to the "we should have finished him off whilst we had a chance crowd" (and there are many, not just in the US)
b)As I previously stated (above), Saddam Hussein IS responsible for the misery his people are suffering, not just because they are not seeing any of the Billions in oil revenue that he uses to (yet again) rebuild his military power, but because he persists in thumbing his nose at the very same people who could end the sanctions, ie the UN. They have made it clear that the sanctions could be lifted (and in fact have not been so far)if his weapons program was checked by international observers. This is something that he has refused to do time and time again. Most of the international community is painfully aware of the fact that he has resumed his pursuit of Nuclear and Biological weapons, and this is something that you should be worried about too...
Jwh: you are right, the Egyptians know a thing about invasion, they discovered that in 73, when they attacked Israel, got spanked (again), and lost more land as a result...although it could be argued that the Sinai desert is hardly prime real estate
Or maybe the former owners of the Golan Heights (used to shell Israel until they got tired of that) who lost that little piece of property are the ones that you are referring to...
Palestinians, Beirut, same old song, let's make a peace deal and let the Guerillas move right back in (hang on, I think they are called "freedom fighters" or something
Finally, had to laugh about the post (might not be in this thread) about the Rabbis saying what a mistake it was to attach the Jewish religion to a piece of real estate...didn't even take 25 years for them to look stupid on that one....
Kissthecat, the only people (it seems to me )complaining about the neo-liberal ideologues is the (i'm guessing here) 1.0056% of the British population that might agree with you (or many others on this message board) The rest of the population is way too busy eating mc Donalds burgers, wearing Levi jeans, and watching (fairly terrible I'll agree) American tv programs...
Wow, did you notice, we probably just ahd our first agreement on something (US tv), there's a groundbreaking moment..
...although all these references to my "masters" have got me a little freaked out LOL
a)The Un/rest of the world is at a loss as what to do at this stage of the game...which gives great ammo to the "we should have finished him off whilst we had a chance crowd" (and there are many, not just in the US)
b)As I previously stated (above), Saddam Hussein IS responsible for the misery his people are suffering, not just because they are not seeing any of the Billions in oil revenue that he uses to (yet again) rebuild his military power, but because he persists in thumbing his nose at the very same people who could end the sanctions, ie the UN. They have made it clear that the sanctions could be lifted (and in fact have not been so far)if his weapons program was checked by international observers. This is something that he has refused to do time and time again. Most of the international community is painfully aware of the fact that he has resumed his pursuit of Nuclear and Biological weapons, and this is something that you should be worried about too...
Jwh: you are right, the Egyptians know a thing about invasion, they discovered that in 73, when they attacked Israel, got spanked (again), and lost more land as a result...although it could be argued that the Sinai desert is hardly prime real estate
Or maybe the former owners of the Golan Heights (used to shell Israel until they got tired of that) who lost that little piece of property are the ones that you are referring to...
Palestinians, Beirut, same old song, let's make a peace deal and let the Guerillas move right back in (hang on, I think they are called "freedom fighters" or something
Finally, had to laugh about the post (might not be in this thread) about the Rabbis saying what a mistake it was to attach the Jewish religion to a piece of real estate...didn't even take 25 years for them to look stupid on that one....
Kissthecat, the only people (it seems to me )complaining about the neo-liberal ideologues is the (i'm guessing here) 1.0056% of the British population that might agree with you (or many others on this message board)
The rest of the population is way too busy eating mc Donalds burgers, wearing Levi jeans, and watching (fairly terrible I'll agree) American tv programs...Wow, did you notice, we probably just ahd our first agreement on something (US tv), there's a groundbreaking moment..
...although all these references to my "masters" have got me a little freaked out LOL
N
nutritional_value
Guest
Just want to say the following:
There are very few groups of people in the world who have suffered as much as the Jews. I won't go into much detail, but to give you my family as an example, it is possible that the only reason we survived the Holocaust is that we ran to the West from pogroms in Russia in the 1880's.
If you all want to discuss the causes for this anti-Jewish hatred, you will find many reasons, none of which are getting real hearing in these left-wing forums.
The reason is, if you look at the causes of anti-Jewish hatred, you start to look at yourselves. How many people here have used the term "Jew" to mean a rich or tight-wadded person?
Israel is the creation of Zionism. Zionism is the creation of hatred - Christian, European, "enlightened" hatred.
It is very easy to blame Israel for doing lots of evil stuff, and I will be the first to admit this is true. But the world is not so black and white. If the modern Arab mind is ingrained with hatred (thanks to Israel), then how do you explain the modern Israeli mind (ingrained with paranoia)? The same way? The same tensions?
I will be interested to see if anyone has the maturity to address this issue.
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: nutritional_value ]
There are very few groups of people in the world who have suffered as much as the Jews. I won't go into much detail, but to give you my family as an example, it is possible that the only reason we survived the Holocaust is that we ran to the West from pogroms in Russia in the 1880's.
If you all want to discuss the causes for this anti-Jewish hatred, you will find many reasons, none of which are getting real hearing in these left-wing forums.
The reason is, if you look at the causes of anti-Jewish hatred, you start to look at yourselves. How many people here have used the term "Jew" to mean a rich or tight-wadded person?
Israel is the creation of Zionism. Zionism is the creation of hatred - Christian, European, "enlightened" hatred.
It is very easy to blame Israel for doing lots of evil stuff, and I will be the first to admit this is true. But the world is not so black and white. If the modern Arab mind is ingrained with hatred (thanks to Israel), then how do you explain the modern Israeli mind (ingrained with paranoia)? The same way? The same tensions?
I will be interested to see if anyone has the maturity to address this issue.
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: nutritional_value ]
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
Johnny,
1. You should be aware is that in Israel itself, there is a massive split between Jews who are from the Middle East itself (the Sephardic Jews) and European Jews (Ashkenazi). A lot of Sephardic Jews used to follow Arab customs and thought the Ashkenazis were Christians when they first arrived in Palestine.
2. Judaism in not the only religion of Abraham. So is Christianity. So is Islam.
3. Saying that Israel is the natural birthright of the Jews is like saying that Bethlehem or Rome is the natural birthright of every Christians or that Makkah and Madinah is the natural birthright of every Muslim. Of course it isn't. The only people who can have claim to land there are those that were living there in the first place.
4. If people are going to rely on the Bible to stake their claim then even according to the Bible, Jews lived in this area for at most, a few hundred years. Even according to the Bible, there were other people living in that area, such as the Canaanites, before the children of Israel came over from Egypt. Palestinian Arabs claim to be descendants of those Canaanties, plus those Jews, plus all the other people and races that have passed through or settled in that area.
5. And again on the Bible, if it is OK for Zionists to create their reality based on their limited interpretation of the Bible (which is very convenient - why not choose to interpret the Torah?) then is it then OK for Romans to recreate the Roman Empire? Is it OK for Native Americans to recreate America before the European settlers arrived? In fact, it should be OK for every piece of land in the world to revert back to what it was in 'Biblical times'. Except that we're not going to allow what happened to the Palestinians to happen to us. We should note that Palestine is also mentioned in the Bible, and Jesus was a Palestinian Jew, but Israel does not want remind us of that. Ariel Sharon flew into a fit when British Foreign Secretary just mentioned that word 'Palestine' in the Iranian press.
6. Yasser Arafat was born in Jerusalem, Palestine, to a mother who was a Palestinian Arab and a father who was lived in Jerusalem but was originally an Egyptian Arab. Ariel Sharon was born to European parents in a Jewish settlement in Palestine. Sharon is the second Israeli Prime Minister who wasn't actually born in Europe. The first was Yitzhak Rabin, who was shot dead by a Jewish settler extremist, because he was seen to be making to many concessions to the Palestinians.
7. Golda Meir was very fond of saying that because there was no such thing as a Palestinian State, there was no such thing as Palestine. But by the same token, there was no such thing as Israel too. And there was no such thing as India, Britain and anything else. After all, the idea of the Nation State is fairly recent and codified in the UN charter just after the second world war. And if you're going to rely on international law, Israel has ignored one of the UN laws that brought it into existence, which placed a condition that the Zionists had to allow Palestinian refugees back to their land which they were driven from. Instead, Israel destroyed their towns and villages and resettled them with more Jewish settlers.
Israel has been engaged in a wholescale campaign, and especially in the States, to rewrite the history and story of Palestine. The last thing it wants people to do is to question this altered history. Unfortunately for Israel, people are getting smart enough to look behind Zionist lies and find out for themselves what the Palestinians really are all about.
For more information, read an American book written by a Jew, 'Arabs and Israel for beginners, by Ron David'.
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
1. You should be aware is that in Israel itself, there is a massive split between Jews who are from the Middle East itself (the Sephardic Jews) and European Jews (Ashkenazi). A lot of Sephardic Jews used to follow Arab customs and thought the Ashkenazis were Christians when they first arrived in Palestine.
2. Judaism in not the only religion of Abraham. So is Christianity. So is Islam.
3. Saying that Israel is the natural birthright of the Jews is like saying that Bethlehem or Rome is the natural birthright of every Christians or that Makkah and Madinah is the natural birthright of every Muslim. Of course it isn't. The only people who can have claim to land there are those that were living there in the first place.
4. If people are going to rely on the Bible to stake their claim then even according to the Bible, Jews lived in this area for at most, a few hundred years. Even according to the Bible, there were other people living in that area, such as the Canaanites, before the children of Israel came over from Egypt. Palestinian Arabs claim to be descendants of those Canaanties, plus those Jews, plus all the other people and races that have passed through or settled in that area.
5. And again on the Bible, if it is OK for Zionists to create their reality based on their limited interpretation of the Bible (which is very convenient - why not choose to interpret the Torah?) then is it then OK for Romans to recreate the Roman Empire? Is it OK for Native Americans to recreate America before the European settlers arrived? In fact, it should be OK for every piece of land in the world to revert back to what it was in 'Biblical times'. Except that we're not going to allow what happened to the Palestinians to happen to us. We should note that Palestine is also mentioned in the Bible, and Jesus was a Palestinian Jew, but Israel does not want remind us of that. Ariel Sharon flew into a fit when British Foreign Secretary just mentioned that word 'Palestine' in the Iranian press.
6. Yasser Arafat was born in Jerusalem, Palestine, to a mother who was a Palestinian Arab and a father who was lived in Jerusalem but was originally an Egyptian Arab. Ariel Sharon was born to European parents in a Jewish settlement in Palestine. Sharon is the second Israeli Prime Minister who wasn't actually born in Europe. The first was Yitzhak Rabin, who was shot dead by a Jewish settler extremist, because he was seen to be making to many concessions to the Palestinians.
7. Golda Meir was very fond of saying that because there was no such thing as a Palestinian State, there was no such thing as Palestine. But by the same token, there was no such thing as Israel too. And there was no such thing as India, Britain and anything else. After all, the idea of the Nation State is fairly recent and codified in the UN charter just after the second world war. And if you're going to rely on international law, Israel has ignored one of the UN laws that brought it into existence, which placed a condition that the Zionists had to allow Palestinian refugees back to their land which they were driven from. Instead, Israel destroyed their towns and villages and resettled them with more Jewish settlers.
Israel has been engaged in a wholescale campaign, and especially in the States, to rewrite the history and story of Palestine. The last thing it wants people to do is to question this altered history. Unfortunately for Israel, people are getting smart enough to look behind Zionist lies and find out for themselves what the Palestinians really are all about.
For more information, read an American book written by a Jew, 'Arabs and Israel for beginners, by Ron David'.
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
"who were the 'Arab Palestinians'"
They're the Arabs that live in Palestine.
"Were they a state?"
No, like most of Asia and Africa up until the mid 20th Century, they were colonised, first under the Ottomans, then under the British and French - along with the Palestinian Jewish population.
"Would I be wrong if I thought that the Arab Palestinian 'nationalist' movement was born after the 1967 Six Day War?"
Yes. Jewish and Palestinian nationalisms have the roots in the same historical period, about 1880s. By 1929, Palestinian Nationalism was quite developed; see The Emergence of the Palestinian Arab National Movement by Yehoshua Porath.
They're the Arabs that live in Palestine.
"Were they a state?"
No, like most of Asia and Africa up until the mid 20th Century, they were colonised, first under the Ottomans, then under the British and French - along with the Palestinian Jewish population.
"Would I be wrong if I thought that the Arab Palestinian 'nationalist' movement was born after the 1967 Six Day War?"
Yes. Jewish and Palestinian nationalisms have the roots in the same historical period, about 1880s. By 1929, Palestinian Nationalism was quite developed; see The Emergence of the Palestinian Arab National Movement by Yehoshua Porath.
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
"If the modern Arab mind is ingrained with hatred (thanks to Israel), then how do you explain the modern Israeli mind (ingrained with paranoia)? The same way? The same tensions?"
First of all, the characterisation of any group of people as being ingrained with hate or paranoia is both racist (because it denies that group of people's ability to think rational) and unhelpful in understanding the situation (because it ignores the concrete political, economic and military roots and causes of conflict).
You may have to make the distinction between the right of Israel to exist according the UN charters and the fucking atrocious, ethnically cleansing and culturally genocidal imperialist behaviour of Israel since it has come into existence, including the occupation of vast swathes of land which it was never entitled to.
First of all, the characterisation of any group of people as being ingrained with hate or paranoia is both racist (because it denies that group of people's ability to think rational) and unhelpful in understanding the situation (because it ignores the concrete political, economic and military roots and causes of conflict).
You may have to make the distinction between the right of Israel to exist according the UN charters and the fucking atrocious, ethnically cleansing and culturally genocidal imperialist behaviour of Israel since it has come into existence, including the occupation of vast swathes of land which it was never entitled to.
resolution 242 has all the answers:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00p40
its not ideal but its what the vast majority of palestinians would settle for ie. israel return to its legal borders, a fully independent palestinain state, control over right of return.
oh and its also ratified by international law. the rest is just israeli/US bollocks. and i include in that the oslo accords.
terribly simple really
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00p40
its not ideal but its what the vast majority of palestinians would settle for ie. israel return to its legal borders, a fully independent palestinain state, control over right of return.
oh and its also ratified by international law. the rest is just israeli/US bollocks. and i include in that the oslo accords.
terribly simple really
M
mobymonster
Guest
ali303, do you think that would really work ? if it happened you say the majority would satisfied. But if the minority carried on fighting to remove all israelis then it would be back to square one.
There has to be a compromise, trouble is extremeists on all sides never want compromise.
mobymonster
There has to be a compromise, trouble is extremeists on all sides never want compromise.
mobymonster
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
That *is* a compromise, silly!
Rasrave, just because people are at a loss for things to do does not automatically mean that military force should be employed to solve the problem. Indeed, force should be avoided at all costs because it creates more problems than it solves. Look at the middle East, the region has become less stable since the beginning of the intifada and the shocking actions of the Israeli government (and no, I'm not prehudiced against jews and have never used the word 'jew' to mean a stingy person with a lot of money). The fact that the attacks on Afghanistan are merely an extension of Israeli foreign policy over the past 50+ years should surely suggest to you that they will meet with a similar degree of success (ie. none).
Re. your comments on Iraq, I fully accept that Saddam Hussein is responsible for some of the suffering his people have suffered since sanctions but the sanctions themselves and those who are so ardently in favour of them still remain the primary factor.
And could this be, do you think, because he is feeling threatened by the fact that Iraq has been bombed at regular intervals for over 10 years? Make no mistake, I am no fan of Saddam Hussein but one must at least make an attempt to see things from someone else's perspective.
Well the US is guilty of a very similar crime, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden without violence and the US just went in with all guns blazing in true Bush style.
Mobymonster, in a situation like this, a compromise can be made to work if both sides are willing. Currently, both sides are very reticent about any peace deals.
PEACE TO ALL!
Re. your comments on Iraq, I fully accept that Saddam Hussein is responsible for some of the suffering his people have suffered since sanctions but the sanctions themselves and those who are so ardently in favour of them still remain the primary factor.
And could this be, do you think, because he is feeling threatened by the fact that Iraq has been bombed at regular intervals for over 10 years? Make no mistake, I am no fan of Saddam Hussein but one must at least make an attempt to see things from someone else's perspective.
Well the US is guilty of a very similar crime, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden without violence and the US just went in with all guns blazing in true Bush style.
Mobymonster, in a situation like this, a compromise can be made to work if both sides are willing. Currently, both sides are very reticent about any peace deals.
PEACE TO ALL!
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
Of course 242 is a compromise. Because if we followed international law to the letter (as we did for Iraq) then we would have bombed Israel and it would still be under sanctions until all 6 million Palestinian refugees were compensated for being forced from their land and consequent destruction of their property, AND they were given the right to move back to their land, thus forcing the Israelis off it.
It may not come to this but Israel is learning day by day that it can't win the battle for a racially pure Jewish State by imposing apartheid and maintaining it through ethnic cleansing and violence. Palestinians who are kept poor and ignorant through poverty are breeding like rabbits, whilst relatively well-off and relatively elderly Israelis do not wish to burden themselves with many children.
This demographic time-bomb will mean that in about 50 years, even within Israel itself there will be more Arabs than non-Arabs. This is not counting the Occupied territories, the refugees and what can be achieved through the Intifada.
Either way, Israel loses.
The best way for Israel to succeed is to genuinely compromise and allow Palestinians the standard of living that Israelis are entitled to. This means the end of distinguishing between Jew and non-Jew. Security through peace is the only way to guarantee the future of non-Arabs in the country.
It may not come to this but Israel is learning day by day that it can't win the battle for a racially pure Jewish State by imposing apartheid and maintaining it through ethnic cleansing and violence. Palestinians who are kept poor and ignorant through poverty are breeding like rabbits, whilst relatively well-off and relatively elderly Israelis do not wish to burden themselves with many children.
This demographic time-bomb will mean that in about 50 years, even within Israel itself there will be more Arabs than non-Arabs. This is not counting the Occupied territories, the refugees and what can be achieved through the Intifada.
Either way, Israel loses.
The best way for Israel to succeed is to genuinely compromise and allow Palestinians the standard of living that Israelis are entitled to. This means the end of distinguishing between Jew and non-Jew. Security through peace is the only way to guarantee the future of non-Arabs in the country.
N
nutritional_value
Guest
JWH,
Just give me the answer. Don't try to work around it.
How many times have you used the word "Jew"?
NV
Just give me the answer. Don't try to work around it.
How many times have you used the word "Jew"?
NV
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
I'm not dodging the point. I don't even understand what you're on about.
I've used the word "Jew" thousands of times, always to describe a Jewish person. I don't (knowingly) make racist or bigoted remarks because I'm not a racist or a bigot.
It's not clear what you are saying and I resent the implication that I am a bigot. If you're saying that you're an anti-semite, so everyone else is, then I'm afraid you're very much mistaken - it's just you. I really don't understand your point, to be honest, and would encourage you to engage with issues that have been raised rather than bizarre dodgy remarks of your own.
I've used the word "Jew" thousands of times, always to describe a Jewish person. I don't (knowingly) make racist or bigoted remarks because I'm not a racist or a bigot.
It's not clear what you are saying and I resent the implication that I am a bigot. If you're saying that you're an anti-semite, so everyone else is, then I'm afraid you're very much mistaken - it's just you. I really don't understand your point, to be honest, and would encourage you to engage with issues that have been raised rather than bizarre dodgy remarks of your own.
J
Johnny Canuck
Guest
He is asking you a simple question, which you appear to answer, but actually don't. This is the question: Have you ever used the word "Jew" in a perjorative sense, such as to refer to a stingy or money grubbing person, as in "He Jewed me down on the price." The answer to this question is "Yes" or "No". I'm kinda curious myself...
Don't worry: there won't be a spanking...
Don't worry: there won't be a spanking...
N
nutritional_value
Guest
JWH,
My point is this:
Western society created Zionism and the modern Israeli mindset of paranoia.
Anti-Jewishness is deeply ingrained in Western culture. Hence my question. How many times have you used the term "Jew" in a derogative manner? Never? I am sure it is quite familiar to you, even if you yourself don't use it.
If you disagree with me then how about this story: I went to university in an English speaking country, and had a local girlfriend who was also studying. She was possibly one of the nicest people I've ever met, perhaps a bit of a religious Christian for a Jewish guy like me, but we enoyed each others company. One day we were talking about religion and it turned out that she liked Jews very much (me for instance) but hated Pharisees, with an absolute passion. Guess what, modern Jews are the direct decendents of Pharisees and this hatred played a direct role in anti-semitism. You might say that she was already corrupt by being religious, but knowing her like I did, I was shocked.
So, my point is that being anti-Jewish is ingrained in Western culture, and it molds much of the anti-Israel debate/writing that goes on, not just here but in the BBC and the Guardian, for example.
NV
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: nutritional_value ]
My point is this:
Western society created Zionism and the modern Israeli mindset of paranoia.
Anti-Jewishness is deeply ingrained in Western culture. Hence my question. How many times have you used the term "Jew" in a derogative manner? Never? I am sure it is quite familiar to you, even if you yourself don't use it.
If you disagree with me then how about this story: I went to university in an English speaking country, and had a local girlfriend who was also studying. She was possibly one of the nicest people I've ever met, perhaps a bit of a religious Christian for a Jewish guy like me, but we enoyed each others company. One day we were talking about religion and it turned out that she liked Jews very much (me for instance) but hated Pharisees, with an absolute passion. Guess what, modern Jews are the direct decendents of Pharisees and this hatred played a direct role in anti-semitism. You might say that she was already corrupt by being religious, but knowing her like I did, I was shocked.
So, my point is that being anti-Jewish is ingrained in Western culture, and it molds much of the anti-Israel debate/writing that goes on, not just here but in the BBC and the Guardian, for example.
NV
[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: nutritional_value ]
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