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NO "Not clean" war - BUT CLASS WAR

How could we forget them elnino? They were truly saints and shall from this moment forward be referred to (by me at least) as THE six thousand. This should distinguish them from the layabouts who are starving around the world through lack of forsight (being born in wrong country) and hard work. May the six thousand one day be allowed to rest in peace.
 
Does the figure 40,000 mean anything to you?

How about 19,000?
 
Rasrave,

The best kind of government in Afghanistan will develop without American interference (like the Russian interference before them). This will NOT result in the kind of terrorism against the States that will inevitable happen if arrogant people think that it is their God-given right to stick their fingers into places that they do not belong.

Otherwise, Americans have got to learn and stop whingeing when they taste terrorism for themselves. Obviously, some people have learned nothing from September 11th.

So the obvious solution is - stop your whining and stop acting the world bully or else your fingers will get burned. And when you do, stop expecting sympathy or compassion for it.
 
Kissthecat,

I think THE saints (of six thousand) should also be distinguished from the:

200,000 Iraqis bombed by America
500,000 Iraqi children dead through American sanctions.

As well as the 600 Palestinians killed by American weapons. And counting.

After all, what is the life of a mere Arab or third world person compared to a citizen of the greatest burger-producing democracy in the world?
 
To help (dim) Americans I have prepared the two pics below. The dots represent THE six thousand and the the 40,000 unmentionables.

I have reduced the size for the sake of editors server space but the dots are all there and correct.

usa2.jpg

usa1.jpg
 
I think THE saints (of six thousand) should also be distinguished from the:

200,000 Iraqis bombed by America
500,000 Iraqi children dead through American sanctions.

As well as the 600 Palestinians killed by American weapons. And counting.
----------


I only have so many dots PCS :(
 
Capitalism kills 40,000 a day, you say? Capitalism as in the idea, the intangible theory, the economic system, put its green-ink stained money-grabbing hands around the throats of 40,000 people a day and choked the very life out of these people?

BULLSHIT.

Lots of things kill lots of people, and the world's mortality rate is holding steady at an even 100%. Blaming capitalism for the deaths of Iraqis is misguided and best, and idiotic at worst. So you disagree with the sanctions imposed by the US against Iraq? Donate money to UNICEF if it'll make you feel better.

Second: you (Pastels) assume that all Americans agree with all policies of the US and its government. You're wrong. A very good many people don't. A very good argument (which I happen to agree with) is that if the US stayed out of all this shit to begin with we wouldn't be in the current situation the world is now in. But. You'll have to excuse the "whining" coming from the US in recent weeks. I don't think I have to say that there have been no incidents of U.S. state-sponsored terrorism, ever. If you want to talk about the detonation of nuclear weapons and use of land mines, be my guest but an important distinction to make is that all these incidents occured during a time of U.S.-involved war.

No Americans, or groups headed by Americans, have ever killed thousands of civilians of another nation during a time of peace.

And there is no evidence that the Taliban didn't know what bin Laden (and there's mounds of proof that bin Laden is behind this) was up to.
 
No these are just needless deaths. ie from lack of food and medical care. Look it up. You have the Internet at your fingertips idiot.

trouble with "we don't kill except in war" is usually you don't tell the other side there is a war dimwit. Um oh yes I remember now, "we are conducting covert missions" and dropping bombs to "send a message to those A holes".

edited by me

and again

Not many people in Britain new our government was still bombing Iraq. Did you know yours was? Every week for over ten years... Boring by then, see?

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
trouble with "we don't kill except in war" is usually you don't tell the other side there is a war dimwit. Um oh yes I remember now, "we are conducting covert missions" and dropping bombs to "send a message to those A holes".
Click to expand...

Pardon?

Nukes? Japan knew there was a war on, they knew sonce '45

In Veitnam, the Veitnamese knew American forces were there. Same for Korea. Same for Desert Storm, same for Cambodia, Panama, etc.

Lots of deaths are needless. Be they from starvation, murder, plane crash, etc etc etc.
Some of them can be traced to American involvement.
None of them are my fault, and I will not accept blame for something I have no part in. Yes, the idea of people needlessly dying sucks, but the 6,000 in NYC, the Pentagon and the field in Pennsylvania imact me a hell of a lot more than the deaths of 40,000 people on the opposite side of the Earth. I'm willing to bet $5 that the same is true for you. That is why I take a slanted viewpointon current events.
 
You see? THE six thousand are all you really give a fuck about. I rest my case. Clear the court!
 
just a question: what's with the new thinking that the attacks of the 11th were justifiable and a sort of comeuppance for the US? I'd imagine a couple of 737's slamming into the heart of downtown London wouldn't be too well recieved.

Oh, yeah: three guesses as to the current economic system in use in the UK.
hint: probably not one that you enjoy.
 
New thinking?

I thought that sort of thinking was pretty well entrenched in the rest of the world.

Loads of people were thinking 'Good. Serves 'em right.'

Unfortunately for you elnino, you're in a minority on this one.
 
If one doesn't believe in God (and hence the Devil), it must be comforting to have the US Great Satan to blame for all the world's ills. What a shame that reality doesn't really operate according to such two bit logic.

If most of the world thinks "serves them right", then it only goes to show that propaganda can in fact be effective. The poor farmer in the Sudan has a crop failure - the government tells him that the Great Satan is, somehow, at fault yet again.

I thought you were lovers of peace. Do peace lovers sit back, satisfied, thinking "serves them right" as they watch people die? I thought that was the job of us warmongers...
 
this is kinda important

though I'm sure any American blood spilled will be our just desserts.

Don't be surprised when the suicide bombings start.

only 70-something shopping days 'till X-mas, hope you feel safe in your local shopping mall

sweet dreams.
 
elnino,
I don't take links from strange strangers, stranger.
-----------------
johnny,
I am not in the least worried about terrorists. We lived with the IRA and others for decades. I have been close to two blasts in the last fifteen years so I am on borrowed time anyways.

And I think PCS is right. I know many people who were very happy about the WTC and not one was a lefty. Just out and out American haters. We have a lot of them here and as I said they are rarely lefties. They are just ordinary people who hate how American trash has infected our 'culture'. And who can blame them? Not me. Out television has become a complete joke because our yuppy 'buyers' go over there and buy the biggest cheapest load of shite imaginable and force feed us with it. Then even more yuppies decide why bother going all the way over there let's make our own versions of that crap... So when those planes hit a LOT of people were happy on this side of the pond.

edited to add

Don't think the majority of people over here are with you because they are not. Most believe that if you can get YOUR man and avoid loss of 'innocent' people then all well and good. But when asked if they support America all the way down the line on 'anti terrorism' you will find a different story. Blair does not represent the man and woman in the street. Don't make that mistake. I have seen polls that reflect this view.

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
All these comparisons to Irak...that was a WAR, which involved the use of WEAPONS against SOLDIERS. Oh, hang on we are not supposed to shoot them when they are retreating...I forgot :)
200.000 killed, well, I guess we missed a few then...the Kurds would be sorry to hear that...
As far as the death of 500.000 people in Irak since the beginning of the sanctions, maybe a look at reality and the fact that Saddam is spending his money on Palaces and rebuilding (yet again) his military infrastructure with his oil revenues instead of spending it on his people would be more relevant...
Finally, PCS, if the US dropped support for Israel tomorrow, several things would happen as a consequence:
-The Israeli policies would not change much, as they are a people who are not used to be bullied around
-They would produce their own weapons (Uzi, Kfir airplanes are the first to come to mind)
-It would cause yet more attacks on Israel by neighboring countries who would feel that they have yet another shot at taking over the Miniscule piece of the Arab world that is not Muslim. Yes, this has far more to do with the fact that the Arab countries (not just Bin Laden) have long made it clear that as long as the state of Israel (read: Jews) are in the region, they will never cease their acts of terror...in a way though, I am game to see the next "Arab coalition" take another beating (like the last couple) as they are obviously not quick learners...maybe they can grab (yet) more land as part of war (yes, that's the way it works) like the Sinai desert and the Golan heights, then give it all back to appease the terrorists (oh, hang on they already did that... ;)
 
Oh and by the way Kissthecat, were have been bombing RADAR sites and other targets in the NO FLY ZONE that must be what you are referring to...
 
Just a question for el nino : I looked at that link and unsurprisingly Al Quaeda claim to be planning further attacks. The question : do you think it more, or less, likely that this will happen following the current US bombing of Afghanistan? Even if you're VERY confident that Bin Laden and his camps will be physically wiped out, what about the martyrdom factor? His followers (and there are plenty of them, not all of them conveniently waiting in Afghan camps)are likely to be that much more numerous and that much more fanatical now.

I am against all war violence and terrorism. Including state terrorism (go on rasrave btw, have a go at me for being a treehugging hippy, you know you want to).
State terrorism against Afghan CHILDREN AND CIVILIANS (not all bombs are as smart as CNN makes out you know), well that is that much more likely to provoke an escalated response, from those outraged by it.
With further terrorist bombings of YOUR FELLOW US CIVILIANS likely that may have been preventable if the States had followed a more sensible and intelligent policy.

Peace to all

W of W

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]
 
1) "what's with the new thinking that the attacks of the 11th were justifiable and a sort of comeuppance for the US?"

You might have read other things and suss it out for yourself. Frankly, no-one else can do your thinking for you.

2) Israel would collapse if the US withdrew their military support, regardless if they are people that is 'not used to being poushed around' (does that mean the Palestinians are, and therefore deserve everything they get?). Israel simply could not afford to train, arm and occupy vast swathes of territory without the $3bn aid it gets from the US.

3) The fucking hypocrisy of claiming no-fly zones in Iraq is about the US protecting the Kurds when at the same time the US arms and protects Turkey (a country that represses Kurds to a far greater degree) is astonishing.
 
{QUOTE] Just a question for el nino : I looked at that link and unsurprisingly Al Quaeda claim to be planning further attacks. The question : do you think it more, or less, likely that this will happen following the current US bombing of Afghanistan? Even if you're VERY confident that Bin Laden and his camps will be physically wiped out, what about the martyrdom factor? His followers (and there are plenty of them, not all of them conveniently waiting in Afghan camps)are likely to be that much more numerous and that much more fanatical now.[/QUOTE]

True. Of course it'll happen after the bombing raids, unless Taliban have a time machine or something.... it's actually pretty likely that something will happen soon (ie within the week).

The longer bin Laden is alive, the greater his chances of martyrdom.
 
Oh and by the way Kissthecat, were have been bombing RADAR sites and other targets in the NO FLY ZONE that must be what you are referring to...
-------------------
Then the USAF and RAF are fucking crap at bombing. Over ten years and still trying to hit those damn slippery Radar sites.
 
Actually, JWH, I agree with your statement that the no fly zones and arming Turkey are contradictions...see, we can get along sometimes ;)
Kissthecat: You are being silly, go to your bed!!! That was my point, he builds (and thereby wastes money), we bomb (no, we don't miss), he builds, we bomb,...well, you get the picture...

Concerning the Israel situation, seeing as most wars are started due to money (or the lack of it) and the need to expand borders/divert attention from problems, don't you think that this would be the likely outcome with Israel. Maybe if Israel was desperate enough as you say (3 billion a year gone), it would do a little envading itself, instead of waiting for the Arab world to do so...now wouldn't that be a laugh, taking the initiative for once ;) (I can feel you cringing at that one all the way over here...sorry). Nothing funny though, seeing as they have the nukes, and last time I checked, neither Egypt or Jordan, or Syria, or the Palestinians, or...(fill in the blanks) do. That's the scary part...ditching the Israelis and letting them fend for themselves might well turn out to be the dumbest suggestion yet, more like a case of "don't you wish you hadn't suggested that one" when seen in hindsight...
:rolleyes:
 
Rasrave, can I just ask, if Saddam Hussain is responsible for all the deaths in Iraq rather than the sanctions, how comes a.) the UN has bothered with sanctions, and b.) the rate of Iraqi children dying has risen since the sanctions? That does suggest that the sanctions must be at least partially to blame.

PEACE TO ALL!
 
"it would do a little envading itself, instead of waiting for the Arab world to do so...now wouldn't that be a laugh, taking the initiative for once"

The Israelis take the initiative for once in invading somewhere? This will come as a bit of a fucking surprise to any Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Palestinians or indeed anyone that knows the slightest thing about Israeli history, cause they all thought Israel had done exactly that in the past!
 
elnino, you are not a minority of one there are people here who think like you. But not as vocal as the other lot, however in the real world they are in a minority and the real world is what counts.

The US/West/UK etc is also giving aid & protection to the Kurds in Iraq, who without it would be killed by saddam's bunch of thugs but of course you choose to ignore that. But then you would.


Foreign ministers from the 56-member Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC)
the world's largest Muslim body has condemned the suicide attacks on the United States, but said the US-led military response in Afghanistan must be carefully targeted to avoid civilian casualties.


So the this 56 member organisation of Muslims are not screaming about US/UK being war crims and terror bombers as some of you are, I suppose they could be wrong and your hysterical screamings are right.......no I don't think so.

mobymonster
 
"I suppose they could be wrong and your hysterical screamings are right.......no I don't think so."
Click to expand...

You seriously need to learn the difference between fact and opinion Mobymonster. I would never claim my views on this issue as fact, you on the other hand, seem to be doing so. Therefore, perhaps you should not be bleating about hysteria.

PEACE TO ALL!
 
KTC: no, I'm not reading you right, am I? You hate Americans because English TV programs have gone to shit? (What?! Baywatch again?! Let's hit the WTC!!)

It's terrible how those evil Americans force you to accept their culture.

It reminds me of a local situation. Before the Hong Kong handover, a lot of Chinese decided to hedge their bets and move to, or buy property in, western Canada. They had a few bucks in their pockets, and they liked to buy in nice areas. Guess what? House prices started to rise, and everyone blamed those rich Chinese.

Only problem with that: who was selling to them at ever inlated prices? Why, the local whiteys, of course, who owned the property in the first place. All that Chinese money was flowing into their pockets, then they were tsk tsking at how their neighborhoods were changing...

TV works through advertising. Advertisers want to show their ads on popular shows, so their ads get more exposure. They do all sorts of research to find out what people want, then give it to them, the better to show ads.

The reason you have US shows on your networks, is because people want to see them. The reason you have american magazines on your shelves, is because people buy them. The reason you have McDonalds on Oxford Street is because people eat there. I think they do it voluntarily. The last time I checked, the UK police didn't carry enough guns to hold to people's heads, and force them to eat Big Macs.

People also don't like the US because of Palestine. A good cause, the Palestinians are getting a bad deal. But would you have the US unilaterally withdraw all aid to Israel? Remeber how Israel got created: Hitler tried to exterminate the Jewish race, and the Allies didn't pay much attention until after the war. All those displaced Jews had nowhere to go. Maybe US and UK feel a little guilty about that, and are now aiding the Israelis.

Also don't forget; even without Palestine, Arabs hate Jews, and want them dead. If the US leaves Israel, the Arabs will set about finishing what Hitler started. I trust you don't agree with that.

For all the evils of the US, and I submit that their foreign policy has undergone dramatic changes since the end of the Cold War (1989), prior to Sept. 11, the world was not sliding into war. Today, it is. You know it, so do I. Why is that? Because some idiots spat in the face of the most powerful country on Earth. They must have known what would happen. They wanted Jihad. Now they have it. But let's not be under any illusions over who started it.
 
Nemo, this is fact:

Foreign ministers from the 56-member Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC)
the world's largest Muslim body has condemned the suicide attacks on the United States, but said the US-led military response in Afghanistan must be carefully targeted to avoid civilian casualties.


So the this 56 member organisation of Muslims are not screaming about US/UK being war crims and terror bombers as some of you are,

This is my opinion:

I suppose they could be wrong and your hysterical screamings are right.......no I don't think so.


The bit about the Kurds geting aid etc is also fact.

mobymonster
 
Johnny, the crap telly we get from you is only the tip of a big fucking iceberg. Our whole society is being attacked by neo liberal idealogues from local politics to what we wear and what we eat. In fact this is a whole debate by itself but I am taking some time out to watch newsnight before I go online to play some games... I mean go online to hack into the C aye A :cool:
 
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