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There was no massacre in Jenin

T

the strategist

Guest
Saturday, April 20, 2002
Iyyar 8, 5762
Israel Time: 08:07 (GMT+3)


http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...D=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=153511


There was no massacre in Jenin

Editorial, Ha'aretz (strongly leftist newspaper)


The claim that there was a "massacre" in the Jenin refugee camp has been taken up by many news media around the world, human rights groups and even among many governments. This claim, originally made during the height of the fighting in the refugee camp, reverberates with gravity, seriously damaging Israel's political campaign to justify its self defense against terror and the legitimacy of the means it is using in that campaign.

In Israel, too, suspicions were raised that there was truth to the Palestinian claims. Many feared that Jenin would be added to the black list of massacres that have shocked the world. The IDF contributed to those fears when it issued a preliminary estimate of hundreds of dead in the camp (it turned out that several score were killed, with the exact number still unknown) and by blocking journalists from entering the camp to report what was happening inside. That was an invitation to another charge, also widely reported, of an alleged cover-up.

In recent days, journalists - including Ha'aretz reporters - have visited the camp, gathering their own first-hand impressions and eyewitness testimony about the IDF's operations. Ha'aretz reporter Amira Hass spent several days in the camp, and her report appears in today's pages. There is evidence of intense combat, but, with appropriate caution, it can already be said what did not happen in the Jenin refugee camp. There was no massacre. No order from above was given, nor was a local initiative executed, to deliberately and systematically kill unarmed people.

In Israel of 2002, there is practically no way to cover up atrocities. Testimony by commanders and fighters in Jenin, many of whom were civilians called up into reserves for the purpose of the operation, as well as testimony by those who observed the events through various means refute the claims of a massacre. The fighting was intense, as could be expected in built-up areas, and especially against the background of rapid Israeli successes in other areas, particularly the Nablus casbah. Armed Palestinians shot, blew up and mined houses and alleyways. The soldiers, who had difficulty progressing, used bulldozers and suffered heavy losses - 23 soldiers were killed. Under such circumstances, civilians were also harmed. That is a terrible, sorrowful fact, resulting from the nature of the fighting, and in some specific cases there should be an examination to determine whether everything necessary was done to prevent civilian casualties. But declaring the fighting in Jenin a "massacre" is a mistake on the part of the naive, and a slander by others.

Palestinian propagandists have made perverse use of legends that, in part, were invented outside Jenin. Leading these propagandists were officials of the Palestinian Authority who issued baseless charges of "executions," fanning the flames of hatred against Israel. The readiness of international elements, including the heads of the European Union, to accept the Palestinian version without question, is testimony to their character, to Israel's fragile situation and to Ariel Sharon's negative image.
 
'In Israel of 2002, there is practically no way to cover up atrocities'.

Well keeping the world's media out of the area at gunpoint sounds pretty effective to me.

Sharon, the IDF and all those who twist the facts in order to justify this brutality all have blood on their hands.
 
Actually lets have a reality check.
The following account of various IDF actions is supported by many different accounts from diffrent independent agencies and individuals-
The Red Crescent and red cross, International Aid Agenices, International Journalists, UN workers, international and israeli peace campigners, and a multitude of eyewitness accounts.
It is not based on dubious press releases from armed palastinain groups or Islamic tub thumpers ltd.

The only people who would dispute these facts are the IDF and their state sponsors.

The IDF is carrying out the wholesale destruction of the infrastructure of the Palastiniain Authority accross the whole of the occupied terrorteries - this includes widepsread distruction of sewer systems, schools and municipal buildings.
This destruction extends to the sabotaging of water tanks.
As well as people dying from lack of medical care, this action will very likely cause a humanitarian disaster - and it will be quite deliberate.

The IDF is conssitantly blocking humanitarian aid and emergency medical services from entering areas where they are carrying out their 'security' action.
This policy extends to the targetting of ambulances - over 150 have been fired upon.
deliveries of aid escorted by protestors ahve been stopped with tear gas, baton rounds and live ammunition.

There are widespread accounts of the IDF using palastinains as 'human shields' in house to house searches.

Accross the occupied terroreries palastinians have essentially being held prisoner in their own homes, unable to leave because of a ruthlessly enforced curfew.

Why is Israel doing this?
It is in no way a 'targetted police operation against the infrastructure of terror'.
It is a campaign of reprisal and collective punishment against the entire palastinian people which seems to be designed to make life so unbearable that they are terrorised into fleeing their own land - AKA ethnic cleansing.

Remeber that Sharon has a history of involvement in war crimes and has made numerous extreme statements about the palastinians.
He is on record as saying that he wantd to rip up the Oslo peace accords.
He is a member of a facistic section of Israeli society who want to expel the Palastinians and establish a 'greater Israel' (familiar phrase - 'greater serbia' , 'greater germany') in their former lands.
Tragically that section of Israeli society are in power.

This is no secret and the actions of Sharon once in power were no suprise (except to the western media and politicions).

Right wing militarist with history of war crimes gets into power and launches a war on neighbouring ethnic group shock.
the comparisions with the tactics of the Nazis in their occupied terrories or with the Serbian ehnic cleansers is unavoidable - and the terminology of those defending the atroicities is almost identical.
The Warsaw ghetto was being cleared of criminals. The Serbs
were fighting Kosovan terrorism.

In this contect it is imprtant to remmber that the massacre in Jenin is not an isolated incident that the IDF could 'excuse' as an 'error' or an 'over reaction' - it is a deliberate part of a overall campaign of state terror.

Strategist - you sound like a mouthpiece for every other brutal oppressive regime in history- is this an official role or are you working freelance?
 
Don't think I'm a mouthpiece for Sharon, just want to express my feelings that a terrible situation is being made out much worse than it really is (i.e. that it is genocidal rather than just plain terrible).

The Warsaw ghetto was being cleared of criminals.

How about being reasonable? There is no doubt that Jenin was a center for terror. There is considerable doubt that the Warsaw ghetto was a center for crime or whatever.
 
BTW, I made this diagram using systems thinking to show what I think is happening in the mid-east. Want to discuss it?
 

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Well, we'll all be able to settle this in an International Criminal Court when Sharon goes up for crimes against humanity, won't we?

"The soldiers, who had difficulty progressing, used bulldozers and suffered heavy losses - 23 soldiers were killed. Under such circumstances, civilians were also harmed."

Surely the emphasis is completely arse-backwards on this - a large number of civilians were killed - oh, and a few Israeli soldiers too. Nice to where the priorities are.

"That is a terrible, sorrowful fact..."

Yeah, that's really tragic, and unfortunate, and sub-optimal, like a cosmic event that all we (Israelis) can do is sit down and stand back, because it's just something that happens as a result of abstract forces of nature like a volcano erupting, and it's really nothing to do with us...
 
In the respect that many suicide bombers originated there. Also, look at the Israeli casualty figures for Jenin. 23 soldiers killed. If Jenin was not a terror center, how can these losses be explained?
 
we (Israelis) can do is sit down and stand back

Well, when you consider that so many Israeli civilians have been affected by suicide bombers, and human nature being what it is, what response did you expect?

I personally was close (between 200-500 meters) from 3 suicide bombings (scared me shitless I can tell you), and my poor wife was 20 meters from one (but luckily the blast was deflected off a bus stop shelter, so she escaped unharmed).

The vast majority of my friends and relatives can tell similar stories.

Only last week a bomb went of 50 meters from a good friends' house in central Tel Aviv. Scared him shitless. He was always on the very far left, but even he is having 2nd thoughts about Arafat.
 
Israeli losses were sustained elsewhere as well, does that make everywhere a 'nest of terror'? Fighhting back against an invading army does not show that there is 'nest of terror' there, just the people fought back.
 
Losses outside of Jenin were insignificant. Only in Jenin was there such a fight.
 
If there was no massacre in Jenin, then

* why was it sealed off from medical aid and independent observers for 11 days? Nobody's buying the boobytrapped houses and bodies line.

* why won't Sharon allow a fully independent investigation?
 
* why was it sealed off from medical aid and independent observers for 11 days? Nobody's buying the boobytrapped houses and bodies line.

whatever life loss there was, the fighting was great as was the physical destruction. why the hell would you want anyone else in there that might get harmed?

* why won't Sharon allow a fully independent investigation?

i think he probably should, although getting an entirely independant comission would be hard. Stupidly, in my opinion and from experience of the way hes worked since being PM, I think his opinion is probably "we didnt do anything wrong, so why should we?".

as i ranted in another thread, these factors dont mean there was a massacre, so its pointless to sit here and tell me that its conclusive evidence.
 
1. so journalists wouldn't be killed in an area of extremely heavy combat

2. I understand that several investigations are already under way

not to defend Sharon...
 
the strategist: Journalists and aid agencies were not allowed in for 4 days after the fighting finished. The Red Cross has stated that they were denied entry repeatedly both before and after the fighting had finished in a flagrant breach of international law on the conduct of war.
 
The whole cntral town was booby trapped, as was seen during the fighting. And the town was reopened only 1 day after the fighting stopped not 4.
 
as i ranted in another thread, these factors dont mean there was a massacre, so its pointless to sit here and tell me that its conclusive evidence.

LMB, I believe it is pointless to tell you anything that you don’t want to believe in, because as far as you are concerned everyone is part of a propaganda war anyway.
 
"I understand that several investigations are already under way"

Not to put you on the spot, but can you name any such investigations?

The UN inquiry/investigation has already been watered down into a wishy-washy fact finding mission "after heavy diplomatic pressure from the US and Israel" (source )

Why's that?
 
Firstly, the UN and the Red Cross/Cresent are already in the camp (as we saw on TV) so that is 2 investigations (I just hope they can be unbiased). Secondly, the new UN move. Thirdly, several leftist Israel bodies and the media are investigating. So, pretty much something will come out of this. There will undoubtedly eventually be an official Israeli investigation.
 
The thing is, though, strategist, the Israeli government can interfere any Red Cross/Crescent /media/Amnesty investigation as much as it likes, and then dismiss the results.

The EU has called for a UN investigation. The whole arab world wants one.
 
Surely it is for the Red Cross and others to decide when it is too dangerous or not? And here is what the Red Cross say about being denied access to the refugee camp. (note that I was wrong, it was 6 days not 4)



The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) emergency teams finally entered Jenin refugee camp on Monday and are now involved in a desperate race against time to rescue survivors who may be trapped in the rubble.

PRCS today formally requested "experienced international teams specialized in urban search and recovery, rescue and unexploded ordinance." Heavy equipment and possibly search dogs may also be required, according to a statement from the PRCS operations room in Ramallah.

On the ground, team members spoke of scenes of horrific destruction, the unbearable stench of death, continuous sounds of explosions and lack of food and water.

"We were allowed into a very small section of the camp", said Khaldoun Uweis of the Palestine Red Crescent Society. "This is unbelievable. At least 75 per cent of the camp has been destroyed, houses were demolished turning alleys into wide streets to allow tanks to roll through them."

Over two weeks passed since fighting began in the camp. After attempting for six days to enter the camp, medical teams were escorted in on Monday by the Israeli army into a small part of the camp. Movement is restricted. So far 14 bodies have been recovered from the camp in addition to 23 bodies recovered from Jenin town.

Other bodies could not be pulled out of the rubble due to the high risks involved. "Many of the buildings are not stable," Shene Dabrowski, a Canadian ICRC rescuer, said on the phone from the camp. "We need unexploded ordinance teams and urban search and rescue teams to help us dig out bodies from under the rubble. We don't have proper equipment. We don't even have helmets."

Dabrowski spoke of highly trained teams of experts with the knowledge and expertise to deal with extreme danger the collapsed and unstable buildings might pose to rescuers. "Specialist rescue teams are needed here," he said.

Explosions could still be heard inside the camp. And the army has restricted movement so severely that the teams were able to see no more than a tiny part of the camp. Judging from the extent of the structural damage I am expecting to find many more dead under the rubble."

Dr. Hossam Sharkawi, Advisor and Emergency Response Coordinator at the PRCS, said that they were considering issuing an appeal for assistance to deal with the disastrous situation unfolding in the camp. "The situation is very hazardous, bodies are strewn around, some already decomposing."

A gun shot victim was found as Dabrowski spoke. "I am sending a team to get this man who seems to have been injured 5 days ago, but is still alive." The situation continues to unfold. No one knows exactly the extent of the death and the destruction in the camp.

In a related development, the VI European Red Cross and Red Crescent Conference which is now taking place in Berlin, issued a statement expressing shock at "the horrific consequences of the present conflict on the civilian population." It described the repeated attacks against relief workers, hospitals, buildings or vehicles carrying out humanitarian work as "flagrant violations of International Humanitarian Law" and expressed profound concern regarding "blockades that prevent humanitarian workers from reaching those in need of assistance."
 
Israel and the Palestinians differed over the body count, with the IDF saying 18 bodies, two wrapped in explosives, have been recovered, and Palestinian sources saying that 39 have been recovered. Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer said yesterday that 48 bodies, including 45 Islamic Jihad fighters, have been found.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...ontrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

This does not point to a massacre, despite what the Red Cresent has to say. The Red Cresent are not the most objective people in the world, despite their membership of the Red Cross.
 
"The Red Cresent are not the most objective people in the world"

Which is why it's only fair that the UN conduct a full investigation, but Sharon and Dubya have vetoed that...
 
meanoldman,

I tried posting links from the BBC, but I was told that the BBC are biased, your evidence are inadmissible. I think if Sharon himself posted in here admitting that there was a massacre he would be accused of bias.
 
Whoever we believe, the bodycount is gonna rise over the next few days.

Also, who's to say that some of the evidence wasn't removed before the Israelis let the world in to have a look? (Pure speculation I know).

Oh, and "massacre " means "indiscriminate killing", the numbers involved have nothing to do with the definition. And given the wholesale destruction we're witnessing in Jenin, I'd say quite a few of those deaths had to be "indiscriminate".
 
Posters like 'strategist' have been been flooding the guardian talkboard since last fall and have all but wrecked the international section with their pro-usa/pro-rightwing zionist bullshit. Below might provide some answers about one of the places these propagandists originate from. There are many others and they work hard to put a pretty face on atrocity.

"This global blitzing was tending to crowd out genuine expressions of opinion from our readers. Our suspicions aroused, we tried to discover what was going on. It wasn't straightforward. But eventually we discovered the trick. A website calling itself HonestReporting.com was set up in London last autumn.

It has recruited 12,000 subscribers to its database, it claims, all dedicated to fighting anti-Israel "bias" in the media. The aim was to recruit a total of 25,000.

Every time someone writes something they don't like, details of the offending article are circulated round the world, together with a handy form of protesting words, ready to be lightly embroidered and electronically dispatched at the push of a button.
"This is what you should do," they tell their members "Forward it on to the news company concerned at the email address provided. If you can, please change the subject of the email to 'complaint' or something similar.""

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/A...4140042,00.html
 
Amnesty International is calling for urgent action:

"Urgent Action: Obstruction of Humanitarian Aid
Palestinians have been trapped in houses destroyed during the Israeli military operation in the Jenin refugee camp. They are calling for help, but for the past two weeks the Israeli Defence Forces have prevented rescuers from reaching them."

One can take action here at their website:

http://www.amnesty.org/

Their latest info on Jenin:

"Amnesty International delegates in Jenin said "There is strong evidence that human rights and international humanitarian law were breached in Jenin by the Israeli Defence Forces."

Amnesty International delegate, Derrick Pounder, a forensic pathologist, performed autopsies on two bodies in Jenin Hospital both of which gave "cause for suspicion". Delegates heard accounts of houses demolished with people still inside them, and reports of extrajudicial executions.

Speaking from Jenin Refugee camp, Javier Zuniga of Amnesty International said, "Independent and impartial reporting is urgently required as are measures to ensure that the desperately needed humanitarian assistance is not obstructed and reaches those in need. Practical measures are required -- words are not enough."

http://web.amnesty.org/web/news.nsf/WebAll/B48ED82DA425FC5B80256BA0004E2FA7?OpenDocument

They will have a press conference of what they are finding at Jenin on 22 April.

Amnesty International statement to the UN Security Council on the protection of human rights and international humanitarian law in Israel and the Occupied Territories

AI Index: MDE 01/003/2002
18 April 2002

http://web.amnesty.org/web/web.nsf/pages/iot_securitycouncil
 
how do they know that they were islamic jihad? nametags?

"my name is .............. and i am going to be shahid soon"
 
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