The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[hitmouse]

Couldn't see a thread specifically for this aspect, so thought it might be worth starting one. Obv it's not like any of us have any particular influence over Number 10, but in whatever insignificant way we can, am curious which of these people would support/oppose?

 

[LDC]

Nice easy question for today.

Currently I'm against military intervention (solely on avoiding nuclear apocalypse, not on any weird anti-war nonsense), but pro-sanctions (although very reluctantly as they will hit the Russian people generally), military aid in other forms (weapons, intelligence, training) and other support. (This might change as the situation does.) Plus obviously support for people fleeing outside Ukraine, and supporting resistance within Russia as well.

 

[frogwoman]

I think the best thing that the left could do is listen to Ukrainians and Russians and others directly affected tbh , nothing worse than people trying to make it about themselves

 

[hitmouse]

I think the best thing that the left could do is listen to Ukrainians and Russians and others directly affected tbh , nothing worse than people trying to make it about themselves

See, I agree with this but then the question is always what Ukrainians, what Russians? Assuming you're not saying that we all need to watch more RT. Or as that letter from Kyiv says "Over the past eight years, the Donbas war has been the main issue that has divided the Ukrainian Left. Each of us formed our position under the influence of personal experience and other factors. Thus, another Ukrainian Leftist would have written this article differently."

But yeah, that is one of the things that makes it a tricky question for me, I think I instinctively lean towards option 1, but based on the stuff I've read from Ukrainians I'm leaning towards option 5, and am currently sort of agnostic as to whether 1, 3 or 4 is the best answer in terms of government policy? Fairly sure I don't favour military intervention though.

 

[frogwoman]

Well I think it's fine to watch RT tbh, not to agree with it but its necessary to know what they are saying? I know what you mean though. Just idk leave preconceptions at the door I guess?

 

[discokermit]

fight our greatest enemy. our own ruling class.

 

[bluescreen]

I don't know what 'we' could do except be a damn sight more enlightened about how we take in refugees and how we treat them once they're here, fgs.
I wrote to my MP but fat lot of good that will do.

 

[LDC]

See, I agree with this but then the question is always what Ukrainians, what Russians? Assuming you're not saying that we all need to watch more RT. Or as that letter from Kyiv says "Over the past eight years, the Donbas war has been the main issue that has divided the Ukrainian Left. Each of us formed our position under the influence of personal experience and other factors. Thus, another Ukrainian Leftist would have written this article differently."

But yeah, that is one of the things that makes it a tricky question for me, I think I instinctively lean towards option 1, but based on the stuff I've read from Ukrainians I'm leaning towards option 5, and am currently sort of agnostic as to whether 1, 3 or 4 is the best answer in terms of government policy? Fairly sure I don't favour military intervention though.

I think option 1 is ridiculous and for deluded people living in some cloud cuckoo land of pacifism. Option 2 is an easy no at the moment just on the basis of not wanting to live through Threads in the near future. The others are all varying levels of sensible and good options.

 

[emanymton]

Dificult one. For now I am opting to despair.

 

[Pickman's model]

Dificult one. For now I am opting to despair.

if despair is a choice, then don't choose it - why not choose rage?

 

[emanymton]

if despair is a choice, then don't choose it - why not choose rage?

To tired these days.

 

[cloudyday]

not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but this is one of the better pieces I've read recently.

The Seeds of War - Dissent Magazine

Putin sees Russian statehood and Russian national and linguistic identity as inextricably connected, and he is willing to spill Russian and Ukrainian blood to protect this nationalist vision.

www.dissentmagazine.org

 

[frogwoman]

Regarding RT I think it's ok to watch it but just know where the information comes from,? I think people shouldn't be scared of hearing their viewpoints and I think the stuff they say is pretty fundamental to understanding what's motivating people who might agree with Putin. Just know that much of it is likely to be bollocks - but I would kind of hope people did that with any news source if I'm honest. I actually think its pretty necessary to know what hes coming up,with and what a lot of Russians are watching?

I'm not saying that because they're Russian you therefore have to agree with it.

 

[platinumsage]

The problem with “Don’t ask the government to do anything but send direct aid and assistance to resistance forces” is that the government is far better placed to send such aid, and I’m pretty sure the resistance forces would prefer well-organised aid from the British government than a bunch of randoms turning up with Transit vans full of children’s clothes, however much they might be grateful for such assistance.

 

[Pickman's model]

at least the poll's publick

 

[LDC]

The problem with “Don’t ask the government to do anything but send direct aid and assistance to resistance forces” is that the government is far better placed to send such aid, and I’m pretty sure the resistance forces would prefer well-organised aid from the British government than a bunch of randoms turning up with Transit vans full of children’s clothes, however much they might be grateful for such assistance.

Yeah, it's hard to say anything about all the collections as it's well meaning and some is maybe useful, but loads of it will be useless and cause more problems than solutions. Even well thought through requested and delivered at point of need aid is very complicated and not without problems.

 

[hitmouse]

The problem with “Don’t ask the government to do anything but send direct aid and assistance to resistance forces” is that the government is far better placed to send such aid, and I’m pretty sure the resistance forces would prefer well-organised aid from the British government than a bunch of randoms turning up with Transit vans full of children’s clothes, however much they might be grateful for such assistance.

Yeah, that is one way of looking at it, it isn't as though I have a big stockpile of anti-aircraft missiles lying around my house that I've been meaning to donate to a good home. The other side of it is 1) my track record of successfully influencing the British government to do things I want/not do things I don't want them to do is incredibly poor, so whatever aid they send or don't send will have probably not be influenced by what we say they should do, and 2) not all resistance forces are the same, and with the direct aid/assistance option you get a greater say over which ones you want to support and which ones you don't.

 

[A380]

... , nothing worse than people trying to make it about themselves

And to think you have been here for 21 years. Real triumph of hope over experience there...

 

[frogwoman]

What I'm saying is don't make it about you. Like my mum's friend who is lamenting the fact that this war is a distraction from Boris's bad covid record

 

[A380]

fight our greatest enemy. the Peoples' front of Judea?

FTFY

 

[hitmouse]

What I'm saying is don't make it about you. Like my mum's friend who is lamenting the fact that this war is a distraction from Boris's bad covid record

Yeah, in all the various things I've read from Russian and Ukrainian anti-war sources I don't think I've seen a single one saying "actually, what we need right now is more articles explaining the way that NATO expansion so far has contributed to the conflict..."

 

[platinumsage]

Yeah, that is one way of looking at it, it isn't as though I have a big stockpile of anti-aircraft missiles lying around my house that I've been meaning to donate to a good home. The other side of it is 1) my track record of successfully influencing the British government to do things I want/not do things I don't want them to do is incredibly poor, so whatever aid they send or don't send will have probably not be influenced by what we say they should do, and 2) not all resistance forces are the same, and with the direct aid/assistance option you get a greater say over which ones you want to support and which ones you don't.

Sure, I guess direct aid would work if you knew some resistance forces that you liked, and were presumably therefore in contact with them and could determine their needs. But even then their needs are likely to be complex - battlefield trauma dressings, antibiotics, satellite phones etc. The low-hanging fruit of stuff that most ordinary citizens can supply in quantity will typically already have arrived in bulk from countries nearby.

 

[LDC]

The difficult issue is that we're pretty much completely powerless to make any difference to this and the outcome, and people struggle with that, especially the over-empowered middle class activist left, so there's always a rush to 'do something' in part to paper over dealing with that reality and to make their own miniscule groups and funny ideologies feel relevant.

 

[LDC]

Sure, I guess direct aid would work if you knew some resistance forces that you liked, and were presumably therefore in contact with them and could determine their needs. But even then their needs are likely to be complex - battlefield trauma dressings, antibiotics, satellite phones etc. The low-hanging fruit of stuff that most ordinary citizens can supply in quantity will typically already have arrived in bulk from countries nearby.

And longer term that kind of thing might be possible, especially with the travel to the area (at least the borders anyway) being much simpler from the UK/EU than it has been with other war zones.

 

[chilango]

The problem with “Don’t ask the government to do anything but send direct aid and assistance to resistance forces” is that the government is far better placed to send such aid, and I’m pretty sure the resistance forces would prefer well-organised aid from the British government than a bunch of randoms turning up with Transit vans full of children’s clothes, however much they might be grateful for such assistance.

I fear "a bunch of randoms" would be bother better organized and better intentioned than the Johnson regime

 

[chilango]

Worth remembering that (small) sections of the Left do actually have some relevant prior experience from Rojava, from the Workers Aid convoys to Bosnia, from Chiapas, from Palestine, from Ireland, etc etc.

 

[discokermit]

FTFY

fuck off you bellend.

 

[A380]

fuck off you bellend.

Splitter.

 

[kebabking]

fuck off you bellend.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, in all the various things I've read from Russian and Ukrainian anti-war sources I don't think I've seen a single one saying "actually, what we need right now is more articles explaining the way that NATO expansion so far has contributed to the conflict..."

no indeed, there's rather a glut of such things on the market