The Trump presidency

[coley]

You're right: now you mention it, it doesn't seem like something you would say.

I think the point CRI is making, is that there are an awful lot of racists, homophobes and misogynists in the US and TTTs campaign brought many of them out of thewoodwork and from under the stones from where they had been hiding and it would be pretty pointless trying to reach out to them.

TTT, Bannon et all will all be gone, or seriously sidelined within a year, they have, I suspect, to the great surprise of the GOP, managed to keep all three parts of the US govt in the hands of the GOP, now the 'useful idiots' have done the business, it will be time to sideline or remove them, so the adults can get back to the business of sucking the US dry.

 

[coley]

there is a difference between 'befriend' entirely accept someone as they are, and 'befriend' persuade someone of the error of their ways and turn them into an ally.

Not a problem with "accepting someone as they are" just if they happen to enthuse the opinions of TTT, then acceptance doesn't include "befriending' them or wanting to be in the same room as them.

 

[coley]

Which is hardly the worlds greatest insight. Those people have nearly always voted republican, so what's changed? Has Trump made lots more people racist? Or did he manage to convince a small but sufficient number of Obama voters to switch sides? something he could do because Obama failed to improve people employability or their wages. And then useless Clinton took them for granted and didn't even bother campaigning in some states.

Bit of both I imagine, plus the effect of people who would normally vote Dem but didn't like HC so mistakenly thinking it was a 'shoo in' for the Dems anyway decided they wouldn't 'dirty' their principles and sat on their arses instead of voting.

 

[coley]

Have you ever had a face to face conversation with a right-wing conservative American; or been to one of their towns?

There's a wide gap between the theory and the practice of trying to make them see the error of their ways.

Aye, on two occasions, Gibraltar in the early 70s when the US fleet called, the bars full of US sailors would empty as soon as any black sailors came in, some of the remarks made viv a vis as to why white and black British squaddies shared the same bars led to some 'heated discussions'
The second occasion was in a pub (the Clachaig hotel in Scotland) various issues were discussed, lemonade in expensive malts, the hurried exodus of the US military from Vietnam, the Kennedys and their behaviour during WW2 and other subjects.
Ended up in a rather good punch up.
You just can't reason with these people.

 

[coley]

You make it sound like I've got a dog in this thing, I do like the idea Trump had about not having a nuclear war, but I don't mind if they want a one-party state now. I do wonder if the one-party will be called the Republicrats or the Demoblicans though, I wuz just curious.

I doubt either of us have a dog in this fight, other than all our respective kennels might disappear in a white hot flash if TTT has a unusually difficult bowel movement

 

[coley]

Yes but the other person (the guy with the nuclear football) has zero authority to countermand once authenticated. It's by nature a very short fused system not built for debate that anticipates very limited and not mandatory cabinet participation. In an emergency situation there's a cabinet rank pre-delegated emergency coordinator. But as they say in the podcast the President has sole authority and that alone is sufficient i.e. legally the President's orders must be followed. There's no dramatic movie style policy debate about it. Someone in the basement of the Pentagon might drag their feet but I would no count on it.

This is completely different to down the chain with the pairs of guys in the nuclear silos have too concur that they have the resulting emergency action message from the National Military Command Center to launch and one of them is not simply off his rocker and is going genocidally postal and needs shooting.

It's all built for a MAD launch under attack scenario not the dystopian possibility of a mad President surrounded by Breitbartians.

They refer to this:

But 'they' have.
What now?

 

[yield]

Have you ever had a face to face conversation with a right-wing conservative American; or been to one of their towns?

There's a wide gap between the theory and the practice of trying to make them see the error of their ways.

Yeah I have on the California / Nevada Border with my friends in laws shotguns on the walls, breeding pitbulls and growing weed not sure how that changes things.

I'm white puny and that. Maybe that changed it. A lot of them had served in the army or navy. Explained how the NHS worked.

 

[coley]

What insight would that be exactly?

Didn't you listen or see any of the many interviews that the general media had with Trump supporters over the last 18 months?
Grim.

 

[coley]

You've met some since Brexit?

Also, it's important to keep in mind that the people and politics of Britain and Europe aren't the same as those in the United States.

Aye, most GOP voters would consider our Conservative MPs as leftie loving commie goddam liberals

 

[coley]

It's not like you have to go to backwoods alabama to find them, from what I understand

No indeed, you can find any amount in the guardian comments section these days.

 

[coley]

I just don't understand what sort of insight you get from speaking with Trump voters in person that you don't get online as well, unless you are initially under the impression that they are two headed monsters or something, in that case you will be shocked that they are in fact human beings rather than literal monsters.

Have you ever visited a Briefart/Fox News comments section?

 

[CRI]

Not a problem with "accepting someone as they are" just if they happen to enthuse the opinions of TTT, then acceptance doesn't include "befriending' them or wanting to be in the same room as them.

Just a thought - some folks here keep insisting the Democrats need to listen to and take on board the views of disaffected blue collar Trump supporters, right? Otherwise, they'll never get back into Government.

Do they also think that the Labour party needs to listen to and take on board the views of disaffected working class supporters of UKIP or Britain First? Do they think that's an important strategy for getting back into Government here?

Answers on a postcard please.

 

[CRI]

In response to this:
Ben Carson describes slaves as ‘immigrants,’ sparking backlash

 

[coley]

So where do you (or the Dems) go next? CRI seems to think there's a new coalition to be built, but is explicit that those who voted trump are to be ignored. Doesn't sound very realistic to me.

Be fair, he/she suggests that trying to appeal to dyed in the wool ' trump supporters' is a waste of time.

 

[yield]

What gets me about these entitled US oligarchs is their unbridled hubris. You're right about Trump and his dirty laundry, but there's also Wilbur Ross and his connections to the Russian-money-laundering Cyprus bank. Normal people with those kinds of skeletons in closets wouldn't put themselves up for high public position; but these entitled billionaires consider themselves to be either immune, or above such petty concerns as ethics and morals.

Careful Johnny Canuck3 you're beginning to sound like a socialist!

 

[coley]

I reckon, or willfully hope, that even that woman I mentioned meeting (fervent islamophobe) has plenty of potential to be disappointed by trump. She kept saying 'give him a chance'. Maybe by the time the next election comes around she will feel that he let her down and will be open to alternatives. I think that's very possible.

Really? Given that he's concentrating on presenting an EO barring people from certain countries and still going on about building that wall?
While not even mentioning NK has launched another 4 missiles?
TTT hasn't just 'lost it' he never friggin had it.

 

[coley]

I don't see why you would think that, I've met plenty of British people who have far better knowledge of the history and politics of countries as diverse as Venezuela, Russia, Spain, Prussia, Ancient Roman etc than they do their own country's history.

What odd people you know.

 

[classicdish]

Ben Carson describes slaves as ‘immigrants,’ sparking backlash

I understand that Carson is a dickhead, but having said that, did anyone get upset when the Library of Congress published this for use by teachers:

African - Introduction - Immigration…- Classroom Presentation | Teacher Resources - Library of Congress

 

[yield]

I think the point CRI is making, is that there are an awful lot of racists, homophobes and misogynists in the US and TTTs campaign brought many of them out of thewoodwork and from under the stones from where they had been hiding and it would be pretty pointless trying to reach out to them.

coley this ain't some christian revivalist meeting but anyone can be sorted. I had the most dodgy far right beliefs as a teenager fed to me by my grandad.

I work in a tory borough. Have to argue the toss with tories and Ukip supporters all the time.

There's always some angle or that. Noone is hopeless. Always remember the Jungle by Upton Sinclair.

 

[coley]

Yes - some people who voted for Trump are already regretting this - the "I didn't believe he would really defund Planned Parenthood!" and the "He said he'd drain the swamp but cotdamn, he's just put more corrupt rich people in it," types. Others may regret it in future, when their health care coverage is axed, the promised jobs never come, they're caught in a big public health outbreak/natural disaster and help doesn't come, etc. If they take their heads out of their fundaments long enough to understand why these things happened (no, it wasn't the Chinese, the Muslims, the gays or God punishing everyone for not being faithful enough,) they will figure out how NOT to vote GOP next time.

The problem is though, when the result of the Trump administration and Republican congress' actions bites a Trumpite/Tea Partier in the butt, they will do anything possible to believe that something else is to blame, not their ideology and not their leaders. We've already seen how Trump voters have eagerly swallowed stories peddled by Breitbart, InfoWars, etc., so it won't be that hard to cook up some garbage they'll believe instead of facts.

I don't know if you met the woman in the UK, but I'm confident there will be Trump supporters who visit, tour London or wherever, even talk to local people, but still go back home believing the very same tripe about Londinistan, Sharia law, gay couples kissing on every corner or whatever it was they believed before they came.

You've got to remember when it comes to fundamentalist Christians, belief for them is everything. Whatever they see, do, hear or experience, if it contradicts the teachings of their church and their faith, it will be rejected. They will accept the most preposterous explanations for things they read, hear, see or even experience first hand, so long as it means they don't have to question their belief. Doubting leads to sin. Sin leads to Hell. Also, lose your faith can mean being rejected by your church, your community, even your family. I suspect some who's faith isn't 100% bone fide stick to the script for this reason.

Fundamentalist Christians form a huge block of Trump supporters, and they apply the same faith they have in God to their faith in their political leaders. Reaching out to them is a waste of time.

When people in the US elect politicians who preach that people/civilisation popped into being 10,000 years ago, or such endless drivel, who demand the rights to carry heavy calibre automatic weapons in public, mebbes it's time that the US loses its 'pre eminent' role on the world stage?

 

[coley]

That is a big story. But seems to be under the radar of the mainstream media

Fancy explaining it in detail on the financial explosion thread,
Ta.

 

[CRI]

I understand that Carson is a dickhead, but having said that, did anyone get upset when the Library of Congress published this for use by teachers:

African - Introduction - Immigration…- Classroom Presentation | Teacher Resources - Library of Congress

Well, school textbooks back in my day contained some eyebrow-raising "takes" on historical events, so I'm not surprised their digital successors might be the same. I couldn't find enough of a citation in there though to search for any reviews of it, for example, from African American educators.

 

[coley]

coley this ain't some christian revivalist meeting but anyone can be sorted. I had the most dodgy far right beliefs as a teenager fed to me by my grandad.

I work in a tory borough. Have to argue the toss with tories and Ukip supporters all the time.

There's always some angle or that. Noone is hopeless. Always remember the Jungle by Upton Sinclair.

I really sympathise, I live, work, and politic ( or used to) in the socialist republic of SE Northumberland and would have dearly liked some Genuine Tories to rail against, as opposed to the embedded Neo liberals masquerading as 'labour politicians'

 

[CRI]

House Republicans Unveil Bill To Repeal Obamacare

House Republican leaders on Monday formally unveiled legislation to repeal most of the Affordable Care Act and “replace” it with a very different health policy scheme ― one in which government would do a lot less to help people get comprehensive health insurance and, most likely, many more people would struggle to find affordable medical care.

Studies of those bills suggested they would result in cheaper premiums for younger and healthier people, and new tax breaks for more affluent consumers ― but also higher out-of-pocket costs, higher premiums for older and sicker people, and ultimately many more uninsured.

 

[yield]

I really sympathise, I live, work, and politic ( or used to) in the socialist republic of SE Northumberland and would have dearly liked some Genuine Tories to rail against, as opposed to the embedded Neo liberals masquerading as 'labour politicians'

Ha. Never thought of it like like that. Always arguing against the tide. Thanks

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

US Park Service photos challenge Donald Trump on inauguration crowd size

 

[classicdish]

Well, school textbooks back in my day contained some eyebrow-raising "takes" on historical events, so I'm not surprised their digital successors might be the same. I couldn't find enough of a citation in there though to search for any reviews of it, for example, from African American educators.

Here's a couple more:
Prof Ira Berlin: African Migration to Colonial America | The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History
The New York Public Library / In Motion: The African-American Migration Experience : AAME : Home

 

[Pickman's model]

Bit of both I imagine, plus the effect of people who would normally vote Dem but didn't like HC so mistakenly thinking it was a 'shoo in' for the Dems anyway decided they wouldn't 'dirty' their principles and sat on their arses instead of voting.

... Plus the people who vote for whoever's listed first on the paper...

 

[CrabbedOne]

On Lawfare Trump’s Revised Refugee and Visa Order: A Quick and Dirty Analysis

...
Consider first the foreigner who wishes to travel here who is a national of one of seven Muslim majority countries. Under the old order, such a person was categorically barred from entry—even if a green card holder (at least at first), even if already on a plane on the way here at the time the order was signed, even if he had worked as a translator for U.S. forces in Iraq, even she lived here and was merely visiting a sick relative abroad, even if the person was a dual national of a country not covered by the order. What’s more, there was essentially no discretion to waive the ban under the prior version. By contrast, under the current order, our traveler is not barred at all if she is:

• Iraqi (the new order drops Iraq from its coverage);
• Holding a valid visa at the time the order goes into effect, ten days from now;
• A permanent resident of the U.S.;
• A dual national with a non-covered country traveling on that country’s passport;
• A person who has been previously granted asylum or refugee status who happens to be overseas; or
• A person protected against removal or otherwise protected under the Convention Against Torture.

Even if the person is not a member of any of these categories and thus exempt from the ban, the new order gives consular officers or Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials discretion to waive the ban “on a case-by-case basis” and issue a visa or permit entry anyway if the person “has demonstrated to the officer’s satisfaction that denying entry during the suspension period would cause undue hardship” and that the person poses no threat. Examples of situations warranting a waiver are outlined in the order and include, but are not limited to:

• Situations in which the person was previously admitted for work or study he or she wants to resume;
• Situations in which the person was outside the United States at the time of the order but has significant contacts inside it;
• Situations of significant business or professional obligations;
• Situations involving visitation of a close family member who is a U.S. citizen or resident;
• Situations involving young children or infants; and
• Situations involving people employed by the United States or who have been of service to this country.

In other words, the ban on entry is a ban that applies except when it doesn’t. And given that a lot of discretion appears to reside in consular officers, the fact that more than a thousand State Department officials signed a recent dissent cable objecting to the earlier version suggestions that discretion may be exercised more, rather than less, frequently.
...

Quite a big climbdown from the laughably poorly constructed first version. This one's been properly lawyered.

Lawfare reckons it'll probably stick that's if the courts don't see the last shambles or Trump's bigoted bragging as compromising it.

 

[stupid kid]

Aye, most GOP voters would consider our Conservative MPs as leftie loving commie goddam liberals

There's a reasonable proportion of the Breitbarters and the Libertarians who consider the UK socialist. It's their word for anyone who gets any govt assistance directly or otherwise, at all.

And to agree with JC3. You just cannot reason people out of their beliefs with much ease, IMO this is due to the massive but ignored emotional component to these beliefs. Trump supporters seem to feel more tied to him, more likely to believe negative coverage is a conspiracy.