The Neo-Conservatives

[EddyBlack]

Just how mad are these people? Any insights into their beliefs appreciated.

Are they a new breed of dangerous lunatics? Or are they just the latest in a long line of Washington nutcases, espousing theories comparible to the 'Domino Effect' in terms of stupidity and destructiveness.

 

[EddyBlack]

The War Party is a BBC Panorama documentary that looks at the Neo-Cons and their beliefs.

 

[EddyBlack]

Note to self - threads must have 'news value' to encourage discussion.

 

[EddyBlack]

In this article written for a Neo-Conservative website, the author advocates killing all the Iraqi's to solve the Iraq crisis. He also wants George Bush to be made lifetime president of the world.

The site is probably of little significance, but shows the extreme end of Neo-Conservative thinking. His reverence for how the Roman dictators used to do things, and his suggestions to kill all Iraqi's are of course similar to what the facists used to say.

link

Prisonplanet had a story about this today.

 

[EddyBlack]

Also we have Johann Hari's recent article where he exposes Neo-Con supporters talking about how they need to gas people for criticising the government!
They are hell bent on attacking Iran, I just do know what is going to come next with these guys. They are fucking nuts. NUTS!

 

[two sheds]

i did attempt to add to this thread before, can't have actually submitted it though.

Unfortunately only to say if you think you got problems with this thread my last one went down with not even me giving it a second look

 

[EddyBlack]

I just can't believe the evil of this group. At best they advocate invading innocent countries, thats their main philosophy. I don't think they are finished.
Then you have them calling for GENOCIDE, killing dissenters and such like!
They must be the worst thing to ever happen to America, never mind the middle east countries. If they got their way things could get a lot worse.

 

[TomUS]

The neo cons are the US version of what the Brit empire builders were. The white man's burden-got to civilize "them" with bombs & bullets. "Our" civilization is superior to all others and it's our obligation to spread it. Their failure so far in Iraq has hurt them. The 2008 elections will tell if they fall or continue on.

 

[Yossarian]

In this article written for a Neo-Conservative website, the author advocates killing all the Iraqi's to solve the Iraq crisis. He also wants George Bush to be made lifetime president of the world.

What a complete loon. The author’s a British emigrant to the US as well, they can fucking keep him!

"Give us your mad, your neo-cons, your swivel-eyed loons yearning to breathe free..."

 

[Detroit City]

The neo cons are the US version of what the Brit empire builders were. The white man's burden-got to civilize "them" with bombs & bullets. "Our" civilization is superior to all others and it's our obligation to spread it. Their failure so far in Iraq has hurt them.

yes, very well said.

The 2008 elections will tell if they fall or continue on.

if the dems nominate hillary or obama then the neo-cons will continue...

 

[fela fan]

These neo-cons are worryingly insane.

I find it quite incredible that humans can turn out like this. The things they say, think, and do, are so far out it is really difficult to get my head round it.

But the worst thing is that the US constitution in this day and age seems unable to act as the check and balancing mechanism which is desperately needed.

That should be of more worry to the few americans who understand what their country does to the rest of the world. The media and the people are not doing their job.

 

[Detroit City]

But the worst thing is that the US constitution in this day and age seems unable to act as the check and balancing mechanism which is desperately needed.

In the current state of affairs in the US it seems that "democracy" and "checks & balances" are just theories that don't apply to real life. In the end it is still the rich and the powerful who make the rules and run the nation's policy.

That, my friend, is not democracy....it's just an illusion of democracy.

 

[Badger Kitten]

If you read Bob Woodward's books on Bush strategy it is quite scary, and he had unprecedented access to Bush & his people so you can hear t from the horse's mouth

State of Denial is very

 

[London_Calling]

These neo-cons are worryingly insane.

Don’t be so ridiculous. Talk about melodramatic . . .

The perspective is simple; the USA is the empire of the day, being the empire of the day brings incalculable wealth and power to the nation, it is our duty and obligation to ensure the USA maximises it’s potential as the empire, so we make the rules and if we don’t like those rules we make new ones. And we might make a few bob ourselves along the way.

It’s what empire has always done. Now we’re in the fully blown capitalist era – without the balance of a Soviet empire – we’re inevitably seeing increasingly bold actions.

This is how human society has always been.

 

[fela fan]

In the end it is still the rich and the powerful who make the rules and run the nation's policy.

That, my friend, is not democracy....it's just an illusion of democracy.

Or, the reality of plutocracy!

What i found funny in a very black humour sort of way was how bush and his fellow insane gang banged on about how the dreadful muslims hated 'our freedoms and our democracy'.

What one can find is that whenever bush bangs on about this or that, blaming this or that for something, it is very easy to substitute the this or that for the US in his speech. It works every time.

It's actually a feature of anglo-americanism rather than neo-con per se.

And i think that the neo-cons are only a more obvious sort of american leader. They're all butchers, some are just more subtle butchers.

 

[fela fan]

Don’t be so ridiculous. Talk about melodramatic . . .

If you want to describe what is, as melodramatic, fine, but it's only your perception.

However, they are worrying because the leaders of this latest in the line of empires have their fingers on the nuclear button, and we all know that the US is capable of using nuclear weapons, and we keep hearing calls by some of these neo-cons to use them.

Insane, well they are, so what else do you want me to call them?

 

[butchersapron]

The problem isn't that they're insane but that they're very sane.

 

[nino_savatte]

What a complete loon. The author’s a British emigrant to the US as well, they can fucking keep him!

"Give us your mad, your neo-cons, your swivel-eyed loons yearning to breathe free..."

I think some of the worst neo-cons tend to be those Brits who end up in the pay of some right wing think tank. People like Niall Ferguson, for instance, whose cockeyed takes on history are lapped up by all sorts of cranks and loons who see themselves as the world's only chance for 'salvation'.

 

[two sheds]

The problem isn't that they're insane but that they're very sane.

No, they're very clever but that's altogether a different thing. The information that they use for thinking is so filtered and biased that they'd class as insane I think. Equivalent to believing that the world is being taken over by little green men eating Rice Popsies: once you accept the initial premise, the rest of the logic is inescapable.

 

[nino_savatte]

They're zealots.

 

[EddyBlack]

if the dems nominate hillary or obama then the neo-cons will continue...

Empire builders? I think that may be about right. The PNAC organisation is sort of the Neo-con aims and strategies list. It talks about the need to make America the pre-eminent power in the 21st century, being ‘pro-active’ in out-manoueving China whilst they are still top dogs. I think the ‘war on terror’ is merely a convenient and opportunistic way of allowing them to disguise this to some extent.

As I said, perhaps they are similar to the Cold-War Republicans in their willingness to inflict horror on the world’s poorer nations for the promotion of American ideals. After all, the Vietnam war was actually a draft war. America has not reached that level yet. I imagine there where plenty in this era that would talk about gassing ‘commie traitors’.

Still you have look at this group, their principles and their influence as the reason that America and the world is going down the toilet in the present era. Perhaps there are a long line of idealistic war mongering nutters, but the present bunch are as bad as any of them.

If the dems nominate hillary or obama then the neo-cons will continue...

Why is that? I know Obama’s calls for airstrikes in Pakistan are a bit worrying. I haven’t even heard the Neo-Cons calling for that. Do you think Neo-Con principles are catching on with the Democrats?

 

[EddyBlack]

Still you have look at this group, their principles and their influence as the reason that America and the world is going down the toilet in the present era. Perhaps there are a long line of idealistic war mongering nutters, but the present bunch are as bad as any of them.

For example look how their beligerent approach to Russia, and lack of sensitivity to Russian prestige has lead to worsening realtions. Although Britain has had a lot to do with this as well.

We are seeing a return to cold war era mentality to some extent.

 

[EddyBlack]

The idealistic basis can by understood by these four principles, PNAC:



'• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.'

 

[fela fan]

The problem isn't that they're insane but that they're very sane.

It can be either way, it's just that if they are sane, then i'm not.

 

[London_Calling]

The idealistic basis can by understood by these four principles, PNAC:

Feller, I don't mean to be unkind, but have you just woken up from a coma ?

You're making me feel it's 2002 all over again, and that's not a good thing.

 

[EddyBlack]

I am well known for making pointless posts or stating the obvious

 

[Detroit City]

Why is that? I know Obama’s calls for airstrikes in Pakistan are a bit worrying. I haven’t even heard the Neo-Cons calling for that. Do you think Neo-Con principles are catching on with the Democrats?

No, what I meant EB was that Hillary or Obama can never win the election so most of the american public will vote republican and keep the neo-cons in power.

 

[Kripcat]

No, what I meant EB was that Hillary or Obama can never win the election so most of the american public will vote republican and keep the neo-cons in power.

Really? I'm no yank, but I get the impression that pretty much anyone with a donkey t-shirt could win in 08. At least going by the 2006 Senate and House elections.

 

[EddyBlack]

I had the impression that Giuliani, and Hilary Clinton where the current frontrunners for the Republicans and Democrats respectively. Other contenders I've heard of are Ron Paul and John McCain (Rep.), and Obama, Kucinich (Dem.)

I was expecting it to be similar to the last two elections with roughly a 50 50 split rather than a Republican walkover. But with the nominations still to be announced it would still be too early to speculate about that I suppose. Its all wide open as far as possible Presidents and winning parties. When are the nominations made? When is this election expected?

 

[CyberRose]

The neo-cons actually started out as left-wing idealists, but who saw the USSR as the greatest threat to world peace that needed to be dealt with strongly. They came to power with Reagan in the 80s and believed their aggressive policy towards the USSR was successful in its collapse.

They’re idealists who believe the key to world peace is the spread of liberal democracy throughout the world. The collapse of the USSR proved this in their minds. Their aggressive approach to foreign policy (ironically in the pursuit of democracy!) made them bedfellows with the Republicans.

They lost control over foreign policy when Bush Senior was voted out and campaigned throughout Clinton’s two terms for him to invade Iraq and remove Saddam from power. A summary of their ideology (on foreign policy) can be seen in this article by Robert Kagan and William Kristol (two of the most influential neocons), it’s almost like their manifesto: http://www.newamericancentury.org/def_natl_sec_pdf_07.pdf

They believe that where possible, any non-democratic government should be overthrown one way or another and replaced with a liberal democracy, that would naturally be supportive of the USA! They are quite ideologically driven and rabidly hate anything that isn’t liberal democracy. It’s almost like me hating Sheffield W*dnesday just because that’s how I’ve been brought up! Just look at how they view the Chavez regime and the fear they seem to have over anything mentioning the word 'socialism'!

I don’t necessarily think that promoting the spread of democracy is a bad thing, even our version of liberal democracy is a better form of government than these dictatorships, but the flip side of neoconservatism is their unwavering support for Israel. Neoconservatism is infested with Zionists who see no difference between US foreign policy and Israeli foreign policy, and it is support for Israel that takes preference over their aim of spreading democracy. So when Hamas were elected in Palestine, they cut off support for the PA because they see Hamas as a threat to Israel.

They want democracy, but they want their own version of democracy with who they chose to be the leaders of these new democracies – so in short, pretty much nothing like democracy! To them, democracy is a system of government and economics, rather than governed by the people. Their policy of aggression to implement their plans for democracy installation also, IMO, runs counter to the tradition of democracy and causes the natural reaction from the population - opposition (eg. Iraq)

In short, it is empire building. The method they use is the occupation of foreign land with a liberal democratic system of government, with leaders of their choice, favourable to the interests of corporate America.

(Sorry for the essay but, well, I wrote an essay on it and the above is a summary!)