The NCCL, Harriet Harman and government funded childmolester propaganda.

[redcogs]

How trauma measured for me was that i didn't feel threatened at the time, and i don't think it damaged me long term. However, i remember it clearly, and it didn't involve any coercive threat from an adult - the man was 'displaying' himself and jerking, and clearly didn't mind us lads watching him. We were amused. No one was frightened that i recall. i hasten to add that i am NOT advocating such behaviour, or feeling sorry for the concerned adult. He was in the wrong and behaving appallingly, and i think its fair to say that all us youngsters felt that something wrong was happening. i'm less clear as to whether that was because of conditioning or because the situation WAS intrinsic sickness on the part of the perpetrator.

Maybe the 'cultural atmosphere' of the time was different. In fact, i'm certain it was. i had the 'freedom to roam' wherever and whenever i wanted back then, few kids have that today. i'm uncertain whether restrictive developments since the 1950s represent an enhancement of societal norms and values. i do lament that today we appear to occupy times, when there is quite widespread fear amongst adult males of being alone in the company of children - lest accusations of inappropriate behaviour emerge from innocent circumstance.

But its a hugely difficult area. And, i'm slightly nervous about this discussion, but maybe its important to be honest?

 

[Pickman's model]

honesty famously the best policy

 

[redcogs]

Who said that again Pickers?

 

[fogbat]

It's Dawkins's "just mild touching up" all over again.

 

[treelover]

absolutely. child abuse simply wasn't talked about, there was some mention of 'kiddy-fiddlers' and flashers, but that was it. It was all so vague - trying to say anything else would bring Mary Whitehouse and the Daily Mail down on you like a ton of bricks. A word like 'paedophilia' just never got used in 'normal' language (too long, too latin).

Of course the DM were campaigning against sex education in schools at the same time, against children getting information that would have protected them from, uhhh, paedophiles!

Not in many working class areas: In the late 70's I spent some time in the T.A with men who lived on the local estates, their behaviour towards women was often appalling but when Nonce's, and yes Paedo's were mentioned as being on the estate, they would go crazy, saying they would string them up, etc, but usually these weren't 'flashers' who I remember my older sisters friends saw as a bit of a joke, something changed in the 80s', imo.

 

[campanula]

quite a lot of people I know, including myself and sister and brother have been molested in some way by an adult - I was stopped by the caretaker at my primary school (I was late so no-one was about in the cloakroom)....and asked to 'show me your fairy and you can have sixpence'....which, being a compliant little girl, I did. I didn't get the sixpence and while I don't particularly feel traumatised, the memory of this incident has never left me and has always inclined me to believe in a wider prevalence of paedophilia than might be commonly expected. My sister and brother had a nastier meeting with a man who poked a stick in their genitals.
Along with a couple of flashing incidents.

I suspect I have carried a frieght of shame into my adult life and have a general aversion to any kind of therapeutic counselling (sleeping dogs and all that).

I also recall PIE openly advertising in Private Eye and definitely going for recognition in the light of wider debates surrounding feminism, homosexuality and gender politics which were prevalent in 70s cultural studies etc.

 

[LiamO]

But its a hugely difficult area.

True.

And, i'm slightly nervous about this discussion, but maybe its important to be honest?

You are right to be nervous - especially on here.

But fair play to you for speaking your truth.

 

[redcogs]

i experienced many traumatic events in the 1950s. Being routinely beaten black and blue by teachers in state schools for example. Dad also beat me severely within the family environment. Both teachers and dad told me it was for my own good, and that if i behaved differently (not that i remember being badly behaved), i would avoid the cane slipper the ruler and the fist. These events probably gave me quite a chipped shoulder.

i couldn't honestly say the same about witnessing a bloke masturbating - but, perhaps i'm wrong here though, and maybe in fact i was damaged by the public jerker off.

i don't know how we can tell with any certainty. i do know how i feel, and i don't remember that being thrashed was in any way pleasurable or even mundane, i remember it with fear, and i do conclude that it was quite seriously harmful.

The public wanker i recall with faint bemusement, not fear.

Maybe we just don't have the language to adequately describe 'trauma' or 'harm' or 'damage' ?

 

[redcogs]

True.



You are right to be nervous - especially on here.

But fair play to you for speaking your truth.

i don't understand?

 

[LiamO]

but when Nonce's, and yes Paedo's were mentioned as being on the estate, they would go crazy, saying they would string them up, etc,

There is also an kind of assumption that all kids who were abused were violently co-erced. Whereas, from what I can gather, many kids would be cajoled / bribed /conned into doing things they instinctively knew were 'wrong' but were not that big a deal to them at the time. (naturally this does not excuse the adult who would be perfectly aware of things an Innocent child had no knowledge of).

IME (and I am not attempting to generalise or extrapolate my experience onto the whole population) many of the people I have known who had (varying) experiences with sexually abusive adults their trauma was not actually caused by the incidents themselves, but by listening to other people, years later, coming out with this 'any cunt laid a finger on me or mine I'd fuckin kill 'em' type of stuff.

Lots of (generally well-meaning) people talking all kinds of shite, was often more traumatic for the victim (as in 'What's wrong with me? Look how I reacted when I shoulda/coulda...) would lead to feelings of guilt/self doubt. Same goes for many who told an adult who would ask 'did you lead him on?'.

Again, I am not seeking to diminish in any way the pain that people who were violated and raped felt (and may continue to feel).

 

[LiamO]

i don't understand?

Sorry. let me clarify. I mean that someone will be along in a minute to call you (and me and anybody else attempting to discuss this subject in terms other than 'kill all the nonces') apologists for child abuse.

 

[campanula]

Maybe we just don't have the language to adequately describe 'trauma' or 'harm' or 'damage' ?

True, I recall fear and anxiety about being late for class and have a much harder time dealing with my father's heavy handed punishments (slipper) and general drunken belligerence.
I suspect we are of a similar age, Redcogs, when such things simply failed to register.

 

[LiamO]

I also recall PIE openly advertising in Private Eye and definitely going for recognition in the light of wider debates surrounding feminism, homosexuality and gender politics which were prevalent in 70s cultural studies etc.

I was only a kid then a young teen in the 70's but this would be my recollection of PIE.

A bit like the way Jimmy Saville apparently used his widely-known and usually-sniggered-at penchant for 'Jailbait' as a cover for molesting children, PIE used legitimate debate about criminalising young people's (especially homosexual boy's and young men's) sexuality as a means to cover a much darker agenda.

I cannot imagine a Kincora Boy's Home (where young kids in care were rented out to influential businessmen, civil servants and politricians) being studiously ignored these days.

Nor could I envisage a situation where a near 50-year-old Rock icon could be shagging a 13-year old girl and most people just sniggered and went 'dirty/jammy old cunt' - but that's exactly what happened with Bill Wyman and Mandy Smith in the mid 80's

 

[LiamO]

On the Wyman/Smith thing.

I worked on a northern Holiday camp in that summer of 85(?).

I twice saw 'Comedians' being chased off the stage and physically attacked for doing 'dodgy' material (usually sexually explicit) in front of a family audience.

But the same working class audiences also sniggered every time the Bingo caller said 'Lucky for some - certainly was for Bill Wyman... 13'.

And it took the Plod months to question Wyman after the exposé. And her mother AFAICS was never asked what the fuck she was doing bringing her daughter round top-class nightclubs to catch herself a 'star' at such a tender age.

Nowadays he'd have been nicked, just ahead of the angry posse and she would be publicly pilloried and possibly jailed for being such an unfit mother.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry. let me clarify. I mean that someone will be along in a minute to call you (and me and anybody else attempting to discuss this subject in terms other than 'kill all the nonces') apologists for child abuse.

*taps watch*

 

[Pickman's model]

Who said that again Pickers?

benjamin franklin

 

[Puddy_Tat]

at some of the comments.

at the risk of being labelled a nonce apologist -

the nearest I came to any sort of 'abuse' as a child was one of our games teachers at secondary school who had a bit of a bee in his bonnet about us wearing wet underpants home (if we'd worn them while playing rugby / football in the rain) and would have a bit of a feel to check we weren't.

in hindsight, i'm not entirely sure this was innocent on his part.

i don't think any of us took it entirely seriously.

i don't think i'm particularly traumatised or damaged by the experience.

while i'm neither excusing behaviour like that, or suggesting it's not wrong, i don't think it's quite in the same league as full scale rape...

 

[barney_pig]

On radio 5 Christian Wolmar described PIE as being exactly the same as Militant; hiding their true nature and infiltrating larger organisations.
Can the SP sue?

 

[LiamO]

On radio 5 Christian Wolmar described PIE as being exactly the same as Militant; hiding their true nature and infiltrating larger organisations.

I think that's a fair enough analogy in many ways - same for lots of the Trotskyite 'Entry-ist' entities of the 70's/80s.

 

[redcogs]

benjamin franklin

A colourful character who enjoyed chess and slavery. i share his enthusiasm for one and not the other.

 

[Pickman's model]

A colourful character who enjoyed chess and slavery. i share his enthusiasm for one and not the other.

i hope you share his enthusiasm for the former and not the latter

didn't know it was him till i looked it up

 

[Pickman's model]

On radio 5 Christian Wolmar described PIE as being exactly the same as Militant; hiding their true nature and infiltrating larger organisations.
Can the SP sue?

if they could they would

 

[redcogs]

i hope you share his enthusiasm for the former and not the latter

didn't know it was him till i looked it up

Pawn to King4 ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Pawn to King4 ?

the trees are in their autumn beauty, comrade

 

[TopCat]

On the Wyman/Smith thing.

her mother AFAICS was never asked what the fuck she was doing bringing her daughter round top-class nightclubs to catch herself a 'star' at such a tender age.

Nowadays he'd have been nicked, just ahead of the angry posse and she would be publicly pilloried and possibly jailed for being such an unfit mother.

I think he should have been done.I met her after this episode and she came across as fucked up.

 

[Casually Red]

I appraised (121) them of PIE straight away. The magazine in question was aimed at kids and normalising adults having sex with them. If some one asks you to stock a magazine in a radical bookshop you are at least going to skim read it no? I can accept that in some large book you may not be aware of all or any of the arguments but not in what was a glorified comic.

Some thick, ignorant and fuckwitted idiots were on the scene in those days.

those days ..if only......this utter horseshit...this open sympathy for child molesters being persecuted and witch hunted is on the Workers Power website

http://www.fifthinternational.org/content/action-programme-gay-liberation
Inevitably lesbians and gay men have been pin-pointed as a threat to the family. Early warnings in Britain of the systematic gay-baiting that was to follow, came when Mary Whitehouse successfully prosecuted Gay News for blasphemy and when the Callaghan Labour Government – as part of its attempt to portray Labour as the party of the family – carried out a vicious, hysterical witch-hunt of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE). To broaden the onslaught paedophilia and homosexuality were lumped together by the popular press and gay men were portrayed as would-be child molesters. The fact that PIE, which included both heterosexuals and homosexuals in its ranks, stood four-square for consensual relations only and against molestation was characteristically ignored by the rabid press.


so much for the repetitive shit coming from VP and others insisting .oooh..the poor lefty identity politickers didnt know that the kiddy fiddler group wanted to molest kids . They got under the radar...nobody knew .

rubbish . Plenty still defending the poor persecuted child predators from the nasty rabid tabloids and intolerant moralists many years later .
fucking wankers.

 

[Casually Red]

Christian Wolmar did a good interview on World at One (radio 4) just now. Seems that "Release" charity shared postal address with PIE for a bit then realised what they were about and told them to fuck off.

this is unbelievable..the P in the name stands for paedophile. If their name was the Nazi Information Exchange such excuses would be laughed out of town...yeah..they called themselves nazis but we didnt know what they were about

 

[Casually Red]

PIE were a minor affiliate, letting them destroy the bigger organisation would have been counterproductive.

The news tonight is saying something about them being on the steering committee . And they were there longer than a couple of years by the looks of things.

 

[Casually Red]

Ok, what kinds of sexual encounters from paedophiles do you consider "not very traumatic" for the children?

the NCCL and Harriet Harman would probably be better qualified to answer that one. Workers Power too .

 

[belboid]

The news tonight is saying something about them being on the steering committee . And they were there longer than a couple of years by the looks of things.

they were there between 76 and 83. This has been well established for years, it isn't news.

And if the WP thing is the worst you've found after three days digging for shit on this & the left, well, it just shows how weak a case you've got. Try responding to what's actually been written on the thread and people might take you seriously.