the left is dead

[Darios]

It wouldn't be quite so bad if "the free market" was a "free market", at least then it would be understood that conditions dictate certain behaviour in what would be trade war, but it isn't. It's a pseudo--free market that is liberally salted through with provisos, detours and circumventions that benefit those that have the greatest leverage on the market (the "capitalists") to the detriment of those with the least.

Indeed. Though the term "capitalists" in the context you are using it would be better served through using "corporatists". There is far more at work than a difference in power owing to accruing more capital - on an individual basis you can only accrue a certain amount of capital given x amount of time and y amount of effort. To hit the megabucks you need a lot of extra help.

As Ron Paul reminded us recently, it is called 'capitalism', not 'creditalism'. It's supposed to be about the acquisition and saving of capital, not credit.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yep, and Ghanaian cacao and coffee growers love the fact that "the free market" means they have no control over their own livelihoods.

etc

etc

etc.

It wouldn't be quite so bad if "the free market" was a "free market", at least then it would be understood that conditions dictate certain behaviour in what would be trade war, but it isn't. It's a pseudo--free market that is liberally salted through with provisos, detours and circumventions that benefit those that have the greatest leverage on the market (the "capitalists") to the detriment of those with the least.

If workers are truly happier in such states, why do so many countries where the raw materials for our consumer culture originate operate swingeing anti-unionisation laws and/or suppress labour organisation? Why are trade unionists in countries as far separated as Colombia and The Philippines murdered for being trade unionists?

Quite and notice how the defenders/apologists for the current system are curiously silent on such matters. Without the sweat of the workers, they would have nothing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Indeed. Though the term "capitalists" in the context you are using it would be better served through using "corporatists". There is far more at work than a difference in power owing to accruing more capital - on an individual basis you can only accrue a certain amount of capital given x amount of time and y amount of effort. To hit the megabucks you need a lot of extra help.

And "corporatism" does give access to that "help". "Corporatist" doesn't really hit the spot either IMHO, because people will relate to the "classic" formulation of it, rather than what we have now, which if you were trying to describe it simply, would be "corporate welfarist", in that the "support mechanisms" in place for the trans-nats are a form of "welfare" package, so corporations tend to get financial as well as political aid.
A "classic" corporatist might also tend to find our de-regulated markets distasteful.

As Ron Paul reminded us recently, it is called 'capitalism', not 'creditalism'. It's supposed to be about the acquisition and saving of capital, not credit.

Bear in mind, though, that the term was coined in the days before complex credit-based finance and trading, and is most applicable to a particular time and place. Nowadays it's a "shorthand" for the accumulation of wealth and control of the means of production per se, not a specific referent to the accumulation of liquid capital.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Quite and notice how the defenders/apologists for the current system are curiously silent on such matters. Without the sweat of the workers, they would have nothing.

Ah, but apparently "...workers are happier with free markets", so the suffering, the inhumanity, the deaths, they don't matter.

 

[exosculate]

exo:

why do you even bother with violent Panda and butchers apron .The are fundamentally dishonest and are only interested in flaming.They have no interests in any sensible discussion,

I shoved them both on ignore

I don't put people on ignore, but they are very dishonest posters, who think they are out witting people all the time. Its like telling Christians there is no God - a waste of time to be fair.

 

[DotCommunist]

I don't put people on ignore, but they are very dishonest posters, who think they are out witting people all the time. Its like telling Christians there is no God - a waste of time to be fair.

so when you get owned because of poor factual basis and erroneous beliefs, the people who show you up become fanatics? right.

Dapperdondamager is more honest than that when his witterings are effectively out-argued and exposed as the polemics of avarice he turns to straight up insults.

 

[brasicritique]

trans:

they are fundamentally smarter and better informed than me and keep handing me my arse on a plate. They have no tolerance for half-baked fuckwits like me.

I put them on ignore to spare myself any more embarassment

oh look its the tarot card trosksyist who knows a 'red skin' with no other criteria than er ...he knows a red skin so there

 

[DotCommunist]

Your spelling has improved brass.

 

[brasicritique]

Do you ever make a real contribution to threads or is this it? .

well i started this one and the emily benn thread and i have yet to see you start any thread or make any telling contribution apart from getting involved in in a bit of light sparring between me an vp

you even managed to start an argument in suburban ffs

I'm so glad that I'm not you because if I were, I'd have killed myself long ago;
.

theres still hope then

I'd unable to live with the shame and the stigma of being an empty-headed tool with porridge for brains..

actually you do seem to be doing quite well although its a slur on porridge

You might want to rethink your tagline...which could be difficult for someone who doesn't think.

if you had an original thought your braincell would die from shock

 

[brasicritique]

Your spelling has improved brass.

in the words of muagaby who i am reluctant to quote but are unable to do so owing to the nature of this put down ' you are a very small dot'

 

[brasicritique]

You weren't being sarcastic, you were trying to be sarcastic. There's a difference.

thats your opinion and your entiled to it but in my opion as i created the post in the first place i was being sarcastic still i do find it funny that you continue to act as if your some sort of psychic lo on the bright side at least you have not yet delved into the relms of ike or claimed that jonny rotten is a 'red skin' as you er just know

My sad what, little eyeroller?

just sad

 

[DotCommunist]

in the words of muagaby who i am reluctant to quote but are unable to do so owing to the nature of this put down ' you are a very small dot'

a word on your neologisms fella. Nushamebore is allright, but I'm not sure 'bore' is appropriate for a term describing the market-worshipping centrists currently dominating a once-socialist party.

NuShameWhore might work better as nulab did effectively sell the socialist principles in order to allow the 'free' market to keep fucking us.

 

[Darios]

market-worshipping centrists currently dominating a once-socialist party.

But, but, but....."we're all interventionists now"... aren't we?

 

[DotCommunist]

But, but, but....."we're all interventionists now"... aren't we?

Intervention to protect corporate interest when things go wrong. The very idea that one might impose controls to limit the destructive avarice is considered laughable isn't it?

 

[Darios]

Intervention to protect corporate interest when things go wrong.

Yep. Nary a bone of sincere free market thinking to be seen.

The very idea that one might impose controls to limit the destructive avarice is considered laughable isn't it?

There were controls; they were just - at best - selectively imposed.

 

[exosculate]

so when you get owned because of poor factual basis and erroneous beliefs, the people who show you up become fanatics? right.

Dapperdondamager is more honest than that when his witterings are effectively out-argued and exposed as the polemics of avarice he turns to straight up insults.

Owned, you thick fucker. Are you part of the red hand gang? If another people believe in Jesus it must be true, eh?

 

[exosculate]

Your spelling has improved brass.

Your brain hasn't though.

 

[exosculate]

Anyways, does anybody want to make a coherent argument as to why the left is not dead?

I doubt there will be any takers, but its worth asking the question I suppose, to show that there will be no takers.

 

[Darios]

Anyways, does anybody want to make a coherent argument as to why the left is not dead?

I doubt there will be any takers, but its worth asking the question I suppose, to show that there will be no takers.

Heh. You'd think at the very least there would be a temporary and tepid reanimation of the corpse in amongst all the cries of "the end of capitalism" and the "death of the free market" regarding the current financial contagion. Apparently not though.

On the other hand, I've had the very encouraging experience recently of meeting a few - originally old-school - lefties I've known for a long time telling me that they've been taking an interest in Ron Paul and the UK Libertarian Party. This was without any encouragement from me. Anathema to be sure around these parts, but it's happening on the ground where I live - I wonder if it's spreading elsewhere too.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There is something of an examination of the UK Libertarian party on another thread

 

[DotCommunist]

Owned, you thick fucker. Are you part of the red hand gang? If another people believe in Jesus it must be true, eh?

brigade rosse? not me guv. I just find defence of the current system laughable really. The current economic system relies on avarice and misery, and frequently crashes. Those at the top register some paper-based losses which tranfer into actual scarcity and deprivation the further one goes down the scale. Crow during boom cycles, and defend the flawed model during bust. The right wing model that lauds the corporate when sucsessful and absolves him when he's failed. You are defending the politics of 'fuck you jack'.

Your brain hasn't though.

yes, I'm really dim. The oppression and murder that goes hand in hand with neoliberal economics lead me to believe that we cannot in good conscience carry on so. Poor stupid me.

 

[audiotech]

Anyways, does anybody want to make a coherent argument as to why the left is not dead?

The left's not dead, it's just dozing.

 

[Darios]

There is something of an examination of the UK Libertarian party on another thread

Mind giving us a link please FM?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It's the Libertarianism thread in Theory. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=258615&page=4

 

[Darios]

It's the Libertarianism thread in Theory. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=258615&page=4

Thanks.

 

[Darios]

There is something of an examination of the UK Libertarian party on another thread

You should have written "examination" instead FM. No sincere attempt at analysis there. Very typical of politics discussions at Urban. Quelle Surprise.

 

[Blagsta]

Apart from pointing out their non-liberatarian nature you mean?

 

[Darios]

Apart from pointing out their non-liberatarian nature you mean?

Only in the European sense. It's consistent with the American sense.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It isn't consistent with any even slightly coherent concept of "libertarianism" that I have ever heard of.

 

[Darios]

Let's take this over to the thread in theory instead of derailing this one further?