brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
It didn't work for me as a cash user, yesterday; I couldn't even enter the fucking shop, let alone buy anything. That's a major issue for me if they roll it out.
The end of cash?
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I assume the system has an accuracy measure built in, anything below a certain level of accuracy was sent to a human team for them to check. If someone walks in clearly picks up one item and walks out it is probably fine, but someone changes their mind, stands at a bad angle or whatever then it gets sent to review.According to the verge, Amazon insisted the tech wasn't actually just hundreds of people in India watching you. They were simply 'Annotating the data' whatever that means.
Amazon insists Just Walk Out isn’t secretly run by workers watching you shop
Amazon calls these claims “untrue.”www.theverge.com
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
I was probably one of those people being difficult. Kind of because thats how I do shop anyway, but also I wanted to see how good the system really was.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Yes but the objective is not to exclude cash users it is to maximise profits, if that means being cashless then they don't care about the fact that it excludes some people and they loose some business. In areas seeing high case use they will not go cashless as that would hit profits.
It may be shit for some people, but it is not targeted, it's not a conspiracy it's just capitalism.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Well, yeah...but, but, but...many capitalist enterprises I can do without/ignore, but not buying food. When retailers of one of our basic physiological needs happily exclude, that is a broader societal issue.
liquidindian
Hello
"Look, all I'm saying, right, is it could happen. Makes you think, innit."
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
Surely the worst part of shopping is the queueing and packing. If they could design a system that removes that but doesn't cause any other hassle then I'm all for it. In theory.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Yup. It's why I love Scan and Shop.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Do you think capitalism and the drive for profit, power and control is a conspiracy? It's really not. It's been around for the last 200-300 years and the capitalists and their supporters are pretty open about it. So given the logic of capitalism, it's really not much of a stretch to think that such technology would get used for nefarious ends.
See, this is what gets me about conspiraloons, they go into all sorts of contrived mad shit when the really bad stuff going on is all out in the open. They don't even keep it a secret. But then on the other side, you get people who may be on the "left" or in some way "progressive" who then tar anti-capitalists with some sort of conspiracist association.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for technology. I'd just like it to be created and controlled by people who want to see it used for social good. Not owned and designed in the service of a bunch of fucking plutocrats.
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
I tried to embrace it. It's halfway there but still requires doing the payment bit at the end and the random checks. I also found that having to use a phone app was annoying if you're trying to hold a device to scan, a grocery item and a bag all at the same time. It's mildly better if you're using a trolley but still.
liquidindian
Hello
No, but I also think that 20th C history tells us that capitalism and a drive for profit is not necessary to create a surveillance society.
In fact, when it comes to financial technology, some of the problems are not because of a blind drive for profit but by what some consider the social good. For example, sex workers can find themselves unable to use mainstream payment providers and need to turn to more expensive, less discerning providers, or use cash, because some providers don't want them on their books. That sort of thing is happening now and isn't some possible dystopian future.
Cid
Proper break this time
It may well be conspiracist nonsense. Nevertheless, it creates the type of systems and the capacity for "social credit" type programmes. Sure, it may never happen... given the benign nature of capitalism and the state... er...
As I understand it the bulk of the social credit system is essentially just a credit rating, I mean the kind you use for a mortgage or a company uses for a loan. That's layered with varying levels of enforcement and surveillance, though these don't seem to be widely or effectively implemented. The essential point being that this isn't really about outward signs of dystopia; shops with no staff, cashless systems etc. China afaik doesn't have the former, and cash is still widely used after all - probably significantly more by the people who might actually get sanctioned under SC. It's about government willingness and ability to leverage systems that we really already have.
Banks and other financial organisations don't give a stuff about the social good.
On the other hand, (and I know this is sometimes difficult to believe) they care very much about finding themselves on the wrong side of a regulation that can lead to large fines and/or reputational damage.
In the case of sex workers, it is a short step from there to facilitating human trafficking and money laundering, and banks find it easier to stay away from that kind of business altogether. The same is true of gambling and other "high risk" transactions.
It's a curious fact in the UK that, if you suspect your neighbour of abusing children or of domestic violence, you can pretend you didn't notice and there will be no consequences. Whereas if you suspect him of money laundering and don't report it, you are committing a criminal offence for which you (as well as your employer) are personally liable.
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I'm going to speculate here as I don't have first hand knowledge.
I suspect this has more to do with countering the increase in shoplifting over the past few years by recording the identity of everyone who enters the store. As opposed to attracting new customers, where it will clearly have the opposite effect.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
For all the fear around face recognition being used by the police, the retailers will have far more effective systems sooner. Security guards aren't going risk being stabbed for a bottle of vodka, far easier to prevent entry.
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
The whole system is based on a drive for profits and this includes the need for (or lack of a need for) a surveillance society. If surveillance serves the interests of capital, surveillance is what we'll get. If it damages the drive for profits, then the capitalist class will ditch it or lower the surveillance levels. After all, the obviously authoritarian and repressive political entities aren't usually as good at the capitalist game as those societies which provide some element of "choice" and a veneer of "freedom". But when consumers are actually requesting such a system and see it as a social good, then we've got problems.
Your examples of social good are fair enough but they all take place within the context of a profit driven society with the commodification of everyone and everything in it. Yes, such innovations might benefit some of us, and in turn, that could be good for business. But let's not pretend any of this is really for our benefit or to create a better world. It isn't.
By the way, I grew up in the 60s and 70s. Back then, technology and automation was all the rage. Almost every episode of Tomorrow's World would tell us how the technological advances would lead to a life of leisure with us all only needing to work a couple of days a week and the rest of our time would be fun and games. Funny how that all panned out.
It may well be conspiracist nonsense. Nevertheless, it creates the type of systems and the capacity for "social credit" type programmes. Sure, it may never happen... given the benign nature of capitalism and the state... er...
It's growing closer all the time for people on benefits (which is around 10 million or so households). Plans to allow the DWP to routinely snoop on bank accounts were propsed by the last givernment and a slightly watered down version is being introduced by this one. It's not beyond the imagination that a government might decide certain expenses are unacceptable for claimants and restrict access to certain goods. This has been floated by think tanks before.
The DWP is increasingly using algorithms to flag up potential benefit fraud. So say a claimant gets given a couple of hundred quid by a relative and buys a new telly (all perfectly within the rules). That could be flagged a evidence of fraudulent activity, and even if they are able to prove their innocence it is likely to mean their claim is supended and they are forced to attend an interview (under caution). The surveillance and persecution of the poorest is already happening under the justification of preventing fraud, the end of cash would only escalate that.
It is a huge extension of the power of the state. That may not matter to a lot of people, who aren't on benefits and pay their tax via PAYE, but millions of people rely on cash. Some may be taking the piss of course, some just don't want the DWP to know what they're spending, some may be uncomfortable with technology or use it for budgeting and some may just be earning a few quid cleaning a neighbour's flat once a week or whatever. Regardless of whether they might be breaking the law or not, in a system which pushes people into desperate poverty, sanctions benefits on a whim and even refuses to allow some people to work in the formal economy, do we really want to take that away from people?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I'm not convinced about that as a primary driver, but I'm sure that the notion of reduced loss due to shoplifting from exclusive entry adds weight to the technological change. My first reaction on seeing the fairly heavyweight security presence at the electronic gates was that maybe some locals had seen the advantage of gate jumping in and out.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Mrs Q and I used Sainsbury Scan and Go for the first time on Sunday morning, it's pretty awesome. Stuff goes straight into the shopping bags in the trolley so they can be lifted into the boot. It took a minute to clear the checkout. The only interaction with the staff was because it was the first time and we had to ask the odd question but we know now.
Plus as a extra benefit i got to fire a real life laser pistol and couldn't help going Pew Pew everytime I pressed the button. Roll your eyes all you want woman, I'm not passing this up!
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Does it take cash?
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Yes I think so
Actually need to clarify that more, you pay at the scab tills some of which take card only and some take cash/card. We paid by card but I would imagine that if you went to a card/cash till then you could pay cash.
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brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Impressive.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Asda have their own lanes which make it even faster as you don't get stuck in the queues for scab tills. Does mean it's no cash though.
andysays
Love and solidarity
We're going beyond the subject of the "end of cash", but many retailers already effectively exclude a section of the population by not locating their stores in poorer areas, or in areas where people without access to cars can easily get to, presumably for reasons of profitability
Excluding people who can't or won't use cashless methods of payments is effectively an extension of something which is already happening, rather than a completely new thing.
But I agree that it's a social issue and should be recognised as such.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
If someone can use contactless payment and chooses not to, are they not excludeding themselves?
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
scan as you go offers most of that , although hampered by the checking of ID etc for medication / booze / sharp edged implements
gosub
~#
Is the same system though that decided during covid that all the people trying to get their money out of a failing chinese bank had covid and should return to their homes immediately
gosub
~#
Bought a couple of tshirts in Uniqlo last...how the till knew what was buying was beyond me
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