The biggest mistakes the British left made....

[Oswaldtwistle]

IMHO, getting into bed with the full-on Green lobby, and political correctness.

1) Crime plagues working class neighbourhoods, but again the Left daren't call for tougher punishments for criminals, for fear of upsetting the liberal middle class.

2) The price of petrol is at an all time high, a huge burden on low income families but the Left is so far in bed with the global warming lobby, they won't speak out over it.

3) *Economic migration is denying British unemployed people the chance to get back into work but the Left has nothing to say about it, for fear of being branded racist

In short they are too busy fighting the battles of middle class liberals and not fighting for the disadvantaged.

What are your 'top 3' mistakes the left has made?




*Just to make this crystal fucking clear. When I say economic immigration I mean economic immigration. Not asylum seekers. Not Black or Asian people. Economic immigration. Criticise me all you like, but if anyone dares to mis-represent this as racist, there'll be bother

 

[nino_savatte]

Wtf is "political correctness"?

 

[nino_savatte]

Better to be cruel to people who are the weakest in society. Is that your premise?

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Because locking people really helps in the long term doesn't it?

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

Wtf is "political correctness"?

Serious question?

The Wikipedia definition is as good as owt "Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, religious belief, disability, and age-related contexts, and doing so to an excessive extent. In current usage, the term is primarily pejorative"

 

[nino_savatte]

Serious question?

The Wikipedia definition is as good as owt "Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, religious belief, disability, and age-related contexts, and doing so to an excessive extent. In current usage, the term is primarily pejorative"

It's both a concoction and a pejorative. So you enjoy being cruel towards others. Yes? No?

 

[N_igma]

The biggest mistake was New Labour.

 

[nino_savatte]

No one was ever called poltically correct in the 1980's. We referred to people as "sound". PC was invented, in this country, by your beloved Tory-supporting tabloid press.

 

[TruXta]

Because locking people really helps in the long term doesn't it?

Answer this please you tonker. @ Oswald obv

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

Because locking people really helps in the long term doesn't it?

It helps deter people. It incapacitates those who choose to offend for a period, which means they can't commit anymore crimes. It isn't as good as it could be at rehabillitation.

Anyway, being tough on crime isn't just about locking people up. In Singapore, they use corporal punishment on teenagers. That sounds harsh and brutal, largely because it is, but it also is effective in cutting re-offending rates.

 

[kyser_soze]

Just to make this crystal fucking clear. When I say economic immigration I mean economic immigration. Not asylum seekers. Not Black or Asian people. Economic immigration. Criticise me all you like, but if anyone dares to mis-represent this as racist, there'll be bother

So what you're saying is that it's wrong for people to want to come to the UK in order to try and build what they consider a better life for themselves? For all but a few mentals retiring here for the weather, if you're not an asylum seeker, the chances are you're an 'economic' migrant - i.e. you come to the UK looking to work.

I'm planning on moving to Australia in a couple of years - I'll be an economic migrant, looking for a permanent, full-time role. Many, many Brits leave the UK each year for precisely the reason they want to live & work somewhere that's not the UK.

 

[Idaho]

IMHO, getting into bed with the full-on Green lobby, and political correctness.

1) Crime plagues working class neighbourhoods, but again the Left daren't call for tougher punishments for criminals, for fear of upsetting the liberal middle class.

2) The price of petrol is at an all time high, a huge burden on low income families but the Left is so far in bed with the global warming lobby, they won't speak out over it.

3) *Economic migration is denying British unemployed people the chance to get back into work but the Left has nothing to say about it, for fear of being branded racist

In short they are too busy fighting the battles of middle class liberals and not fighting for the disadvantaged.

What are your 'top 3' mistakes the left has made?

I think you are quite wrong on 1 for a couple of reasons. There is nothing to say draconian punishments reduce crime, and there is much to suggest that poorer people and people from poorer areas would receive a disproportionately higher helping of these punishments.

2 doesn't really wash either. High fuel prices aren't anything to do with global warming but about demand for oil, and government reliance on tax revenue gained thereon.

3 I will give you. It's an odd one. I think the working class would benefit from a labour shortage. Wages would rise, workers would be in a stronger bargaining position over contracts, and unions would have greater power and popularity (slower turnover, less reliance on temporary staff, etc). The difficulty is in the ethics and practicality of implementing any kind of migration freeze.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

So what you're saying is that it's wrong for people to want to come to the UK in order to try and build what they consider a better life for themselves?

It's not wrong for them to want it, but we shouldn't allow it. I don't blame the economic migrants, I blame the laws that allow them to come here.

 

[trevhagl]

The biggest mistake was New Labour.

but that wasn't left was it?

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm interested in these "crime plagues". Tell me more.

 

[Balbi]

Economic migration allows fruit to get picked, hospitals to get staffed and, sadly, dodgy 'enterprising' business fucks to get their goods packed at under the minimum wage. It's not the fault of economic migrants that our unemployed are either underskilled or trained for roles in public sector work which are ceasing to exists. I'd lay that one on the horrorshow of JobCentre 'training programmes' and the MacMillan-esque belief in the 90's that by now we'd all be working on computers and that manufacturing would cease to exist.

 

[TruXta]

It helps deter people. It incapacitates those who choose to offend for a period, which means they can't commit anymore crimes. It isn't as good as it could be at rehabillitation.

Anyway, being tough on crime isn't just about locking people up. In Singapore, they use corporal punishment on teenagers. That sounds harsh and brutal, largely because it is, but it also is effective in cutting re-offending rates.

No it doesn't deter people. It doesn't stop people committing crimes, it only stops them from committing them outside of a prison, while on the inside the best education they get is how to be a better criminal. Have you looked at recidivism rates lately? And to say that it isn't as good as it could be at rehab is putting it mildly. And to top it off you now seem to advocate the reinstatement of corporeal punishment. Jesus wept.

 

[kyser_soze]

It's not wrong for them to want it, but we shouldn't allow it. I don't blame the economic migrants, I blame the laws that allow them to come here.

So what you're saying is that no-one should be allowed to move where they want, to settle where they want? That I shouldn't be allowed to leave the UK and try and build a new life somewhere else?

Uh-huh.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

I think you are quite wrong on 1 for a couple of reasons. There is nothing to say draconian punishments reduce crime, and there is much to suggest that poorer people and people from poorer areas would receive a disproportionately higher helping of these punishments.

But if these punishments do work (and I'm not in favour of them unless they do) then law- abiding poor people will disproportionally *benefit* from them, because most of the crime ridden neigbourhoods are working class.

2 doesn't really wash either. High fuel prices aren't anything to do with global warming but about demand for oil, and government reliance on tax revenue gained thereon.

Global warming is used as the justification for these high taxes. Why not tax other things? Because it wouldn't wash.

3 I will give you. It's an odd one. I think the working class would benefit from a labour shortage. Wages would rise, workers would be in a stronger bargaining position over contracts, and unions would have greater power and popularity (slower turnover, less reliance on temporary staff, etc). The difficulty is in the ethics and practicality of implementing any kind of migration freeze.

Yes it would be difficult to do, especially now that many economic migrants have established families over here.

 

[TruXta]

So what you're saying is that no-one should be allowed to move where they want, to settle where they want? That I shouldn't be allowed to leave the UK and try and build a new life somewhere else?

Uh-huh.

Nah, it's only meant for people coming in here yes? Of course Brits should be free to move to Spain and complain that the country is going to the dogs!

 

[Idaho]

Economic migration allows fruit to get picked, hospitals to get staffed and, sadly, dodgy 'enterprising' business fucks to get their goods packed at under the minimum wage. It's not the fault of economic migrants that our unemployed are either underskilled or trained for roles in public sector work which are ceasing to exists. I'd lay that one on the horrorshow of JobCentre 'training programmes' and the MacMillan-esque belief in the 90's that by now we'd all be working on computers and that manufacturing would cease to exist.

Don't you suppose that without migrants willing to work for less and less able/willing to demand their labour rights, the overall conditions of employment would rise? Prices would also rise of course... and once again, there is a moral/ethical component.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

So what you're saying is that no-one should be allowed to move where they want, to settle where they want? That I shouldn't be allowed to leave the UK and try and build a new life somewhere else?

Uh-huh.

You are going where? Australia? Good luck, that is a damn difficult country to get into. If the rules here were as strict, we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

[Idaho]

Global warming is used as the justification for these high taxes. Why not tax other things? Because it wouldn't wash.

Naah.. it's about money.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

And to top it off you now seem to advocate the reinstatement of corporeal punishment. Jesus wept.

Just to be clear- I *am* advocating the reinstatement of corporal punishment.

 

[Dillinger4]

So your problems are immigrants, criminals and fuel prices? They are problems for right wing people. They are not our 'mistakes'. If you are bothered about those things, its simple, just vote tory, because you are a tory.

And then you can happily hate foreigners, immigrants and the poor without ever really having to think why they exist.

 

[nino_savatte]

It's the top of a slippery slope.

 

[kyser_soze]

My partner is Australian, and is an 'economic migrant' to these shores

Don't you suppose that without migrants willing to work for less and less able/willing to demand their labour rights, the overall conditions of employment would rise? Prices would also rise of course... and once again, there is a moral/ethical component.

You're presupposing that there was some kind of local labour shortage to start with. There wasn't.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Just to be clear- I *am* advocating the reinstatement of corporal punishment.

Chop their hands off or a good old fashioned flogging?

 

[Dillinger4]

My partner is Australian, and is an 'economic migrant' to these shores



You're presupposing that there was some kind of local labour shortage to start with. There wasn't.

Whites are OK. They fit in in Britain. It's the ones with the smelly food and darker skin who are not welcome.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Who is this left?

I think you mean the liberal left, liberal being the operative word.

On immigration, the proper left should not be adopting the liberal position of one section of the labour market being used to drive down wages of other sections of the labour market being a wonderful, brilliant thing, because it isn't. But the way to combat this is by figthing for collective wage bargaining and equal rates of pay for all workers, which undercuts (oh look) the bosses' attempts to drive down wages and conditions. It's irrelevant - or should be, in terms of the 'left's' response - that the section of the labour market in this case happens to be migrant or sourced overseas, it's the same affect (and solution) as with the proliferation of temp workers - equal rights, conditions and pay for all workers. It isn't the workers - migrant or non-migrant - who benefit from an increasingly 'flexible' labour market, it's the fucking bosses. Cunts that they are.

I agree on petrol, it is a necessity for many and a huge and growing cost. Again it should be regarded in the same way as rising rents and rising food prices. Green lobby should pressure up, on big business and the government, to provide sustainable energy sources and good, cheap (free ideally) public transport, not to the side on ordinary people who are just trying to get by.

What your criticisms amount to is that class analysis has gone out of the window with the liberal left (and sections of the socialist left tbf) and that they fetishise specific issues.