The Big Four railway companies: which was the best?
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hiraethified
Me neither but there's this wonderful thing called t'Internet. It's got pictures and everything!i'm not old enough to remember
davesgcr
Reading books
Has to be the GWR !
Even in the recession of the1930's it made the best return plus it had the best engines (a tad Victorian)
it was innovative - bulk milk , fast freight trains (known as "vaccums") - really good express services on a standard clockface pattern , road and rail integration throught the country lorry service , bus services , diesel railcars , aeroplanes marked "GW"
Social services like late night drinkers trains up the Valleys -docks etc - I could bore for eternity on this !
Even in the recession of the1930's it made the best return plus it had the best engines (a tad Victorian)
it was innovative - bulk milk , fast freight trains (known as "vaccums") - really good express services on a standard clockface pattern , road and rail integration throught the country lorry service , bus services , diesel railcars , aeroplanes marked "GW"
Social services like late night drinkers trains up the Valleys -docks etc - I could bore for eternity on this !
cybertect
It's grim up north (London)
I have to say that employing Nigel Gresley does rather help swing things in their direction purely on glamour (though my Southernist tendencies also love Bullied's 4-6-2s).
hipipol
Peckham Wry
GWR all the way
Churchward and Collect may not inspire the same devotion (though Gods Wonerful Railway did have the first steam engine to pull a train at over 100 mph - a Churchward design) but they were a fully integrated transport company, with their own coal mines, docks, steamers, bus services, etc. Equally they introduced the first deisel railcars - having already pioneered the concept of railcars via their steam powered service.
Part from all else, having spent years in Gloucestershire I am already a fully paid up member of the "Love Chocolate and Cream Crew"
Churchward and Collect may not inspire the same devotion (though Gods Wonerful Railway did have the first steam engine to pull a train at over 100 mph - a Churchward design) but they were a fully integrated transport company, with their own coal mines, docks, steamers, bus services, etc. Equally they introduced the first deisel railcars - having already pioneered the concept of railcars via their steam powered service.
Part from all else, having spent years in Gloucestershire I am already a fully paid up member of the "Love Chocolate and Cream Crew"
Spion
I hear ya
LMS - love the liveries (maroon, black) and its heroic workhorse locos, the Black 5, the 8F.
You can stuff your poncey GWR holiday destination, branch line idyll nonsense and its poncey colour schemes
I am from Brum so I perhaps dislike GWR with the ferocity typical of a border dweller
LNER and SR were just not on my map
You can stuff your poncey GWR holiday destination, branch line idyll nonsense and its poncey colour schemes
I am from Brum so I perhaps dislike GWR with the ferocity typical of a border dweller
LNER and SR were just not on my map
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
No contest.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Pah to all you antiquarians! It's surely a toss up between Virgin or First Great Western. Both offer a service that's second to none. Not so much travelling, but voyaging. The hermetically sealed air conditioned environment, the over bright lighting, the cramped seating, the piss-poor punctuality and reliability all combine to create a romance, neigh majesty, that is often overlooked in this workaday world.
At the risk of stirring up a hornets' nest I don't really understand the adulation that the Great Western gets. It was no better than the rest of the Big Four in most respects. It made a greater profit than the others but the price for that was that it looked increasingly old-fashioned by the 1930s - probably more so than the others. It was no more technically innovative than the LNER or LMS and certainly less so than the Southern, and no more commercially innovative either. The main thing I can see is that it had a longer history and fewer internal rivalries, and a strong image that its publicity department played up to for all they were worth. I don't see why it deserves so much more attention than the LNER, the LMS or the Southern.
Er ... put that coal shovel down, davesgcr!
<runs away>
Er ... put that coal shovel down, davesgcr!
<runs away>
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Mallard is the fastest ever.
Mallard is therefore the best.
Mallard was the LNER.
Therefore LNER wins.
QED.
Mallard is therefore the best.
Mallard was the LNER.
Therefore LNER wins.
QED.
davesgcr
Reading books
Of course the GWR had proper coal shovels too.....
Perfect for hitting non believers with .
Yes it was a bit old fashioned - but was truly innovative and it didnt believe in cramming even its commuters into Quad Arts (LNER) or unwashed , filthy wooden bodied gas lit stock (Harrow 1952)
And a safety system "ATC" from 1906 that allowed full speed to be maintained in fog and poor visibility.
Mind you I have always had a soft spot for the Southern Electric of Sir Herbert Walkers era -"Brighton on the hour in the hour every hour" etc - Pullman cars for weary commuters serving pan fried eggs and bacon for 1/6d etc etc.
If there is reincarnation I know when and where I want to go back to
Perfect for hitting non believers with .
Yes it was a bit old fashioned - but was truly innovative and it didnt believe in cramming even its commuters into Quad Arts (LNER) or unwashed , filthy wooden bodied gas lit stock (Harrow 1952)
And a safety system "ATC" from 1906 that allowed full speed to be maintained in fog and poor visibility.
Mind you I have always had a soft spot for the Southern Electric of Sir Herbert Walkers era -"Brighton on the hour in the hour every hour" etc - Pullman cars for weary commuters serving pan fried eggs and bacon for 1/6d etc etc.
If there is reincarnation I know when and where I want to go back to
davesgcr
Reading books
Stanier was trained at Swindon - and the LMS engines he built (excellent that they were - were modernised GWR designs) No points
Gresley was a true genius for designing world class express engines (but not good at run of the mill types bar the V2 mixed traffic engines - so concede a bonus point there)
Bulleid - well - over innovative (barking mad ?) and not controlled by the electric obsessed Board so produced the wrong engines at the wrong time which were amazingly unreliable and expensive to run until rebuilt by BR. Nil points. Genius but not practical
Unlike the GWR of course which standardised as far back as 1906 and had such brilliant engines they were capable of 2 World Wars and being unbeatable until the diesels replaced them
Game set and match - people just cannot get to terms with such puissance , elegance and economy.
Coal well back in the tender now ......
Gresley was a true genius for designing world class express engines (but not good at run of the mill types bar the V2 mixed traffic engines - so concede a bonus point there)
Bulleid - well - over innovative (barking mad ?) and not controlled by the electric obsessed Board so produced the wrong engines at the wrong time which were amazingly unreliable and expensive to run until rebuilt by BR. Nil points. Genius but not practical
Unlike the GWR of course which standardised as far back as 1906 and had such brilliant engines they were capable of 2 World Wars and being unbeatable until the diesels replaced them
Game set and match - people just cannot get to terms with such puissance , elegance and economy.
Coal well back in the tender now ......
Idaho
blah blah blah
LOL
(PS: It's 'nay' not 'neigh', you donkey)
I started with neh, then edited to nah. Then edited one more time to neigh. It still didn't seem right but I couldn't be arsed. I knew that some pedant would come along and correct it soon enough
Well, Stanier was Swindon-trained, but he did his best work for the LMS and for them produced the 8F and Black Five, surely two of the finest and most versatile British steam locomotive designs ever. And his deputy was Bob Riddles, an underrated engineer whose talents British Rail didn't use to their best advantage. So I claim my point for that one!
Gresley? Well, point taken about him being best remembered for his express designs, but his mixed traffic locos weren't disasters either - especially, as you say, the V2. Granted, he didn't produce a heavy-freight design, but then he didn't need to: the LNER was awash with ex-War Department Robinson 2-8-0s. Nor did the GWR produce one in the Grouping period, since G.J. Churchward had done the hard work for them before WW1! Lest we forget, in the last years of the LNER, Arthur Peppercorn was a damn good engineer too, and Thompson deserves an honorary mention.
Bulleid? Well, point taken about his eccentricity, but many of his designs did excellent service once the weirder bits were taken off (although granted, BR did that)! And anyway, I think the Southern deserves 'innovation points' for pushing through electrification in the face of a difficult economic situation.
The LMS and LNER both dabbled in mainline diesels and the former had an active programme to replace steam locos with diesels for shunting: the GWR, contrary as always, carried on building steam shunters right up to nationalisation (and beyond)! I won't knock the GWR's engines at all - there's nothing like the sight of a Castle or a King in full flight, and they were sturdy and reliable too - but they were looking old-fashioned by 1939...
<stands on top of an LNER B1, making rude gestures in the direction of Swindon>
Gresley? Well, point taken about him being best remembered for his express designs, but his mixed traffic locos weren't disasters either - especially, as you say, the V2. Granted, he didn't produce a heavy-freight design, but then he didn't need to: the LNER was awash with ex-War Department Robinson 2-8-0s. Nor did the GWR produce one in the Grouping period, since G.J. Churchward had done the hard work for them before WW1! Lest we forget, in the last years of the LNER, Arthur Peppercorn was a damn good engineer too, and Thompson deserves an honorary mention.
Bulleid? Well, point taken about his eccentricity, but many of his designs did excellent service once the weirder bits were taken off (although granted, BR did that)! And anyway, I think the Southern deserves 'innovation points' for pushing through electrification in the face of a difficult economic situation.
The LMS and LNER both dabbled in mainline diesels and the former had an active programme to replace steam locos with diesels for shunting: the GWR, contrary as always, carried on building steam shunters right up to nationalisation (and beyond)! I won't knock the GWR's engines at all - there's nothing like the sight of a Castle or a King in full flight, and they were sturdy and reliable too - but they were looking old-fashioned by 1939...
<stands on top of an LNER B1, making rude gestures in the direction of Swindon>
Spion
I hear ya
The LNER *nearly* got to electrification too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester-Sheffield-Wath_electric_railway
The LNER did inherit the NER's Newport - Shildon electrification stuff, though...does that count?
Of course, where electrification is concerned, the Southern's the daddy. I grew up with the "oh, it's all so hard!" whine and grind of SR EMUs like these, with seat cushions so deep a 9 year old kid could hardly climb out of them, and wrist-breaking door handles that were very unforgiving of anyone still holding them as you slammed the door shut...
and even these new-fangled modern things
...so that's where my affections lie.
The LNER did inherit the NER's Newport - Shildon electrification stuff, though...does that count?
Of course, where electrification is concerned, the Southern's the daddy. I grew up with the "oh, it's all so hard!" whine and grind of SR EMUs like these, with seat cushions so deep a 9 year old kid could hardly climb out of them, and wrist-breaking door handles that were very unforgiving of anyone still holding them as you slammed the door shut...
4SUBs! I remember them (and 4EPBs). Chessington South <-> Waterloo was route code 18 iirc. The seats were SO comfy but plonking down on them raised a huge dust cloud (i can still kind of rememebr the smell). They had those string luggage racks that were great for hanging off/lying in, light bulbs you could nick and chuck out the windows at level crossings, and doors you could open while the train was going along and hang out of
Not that I did any of this, you understand
I'd say 'not really,' since it was only a very short stretch of electrified line and the LNER did little to develop it, although IIRC it did pursue some limited electrification of North London suburban lines before the outbreak of war in 1939 put a stop to the project.
If we're going to have a more modern nostalgia-fest, though, here's where my affections lie!
Vroooooom!
Not that I did any of this, you understand
I once had a piss out of the window of a 'Thumper' DMU on the line to Uckfield.
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