Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[belboid]

Plus you forget I literally saw the SWP doing this firsthand when I was active in the STWC. Suddenly it was all about agreeing with gender segregation and homophobia is a cultural norm. Fucking sickening reactionary appeasing cowardice.

I think we all recall their shameful behaviour at that time, and their article on the latest attack is appalling. A have a bit of a dither around the separate seating at some of the rallies, because without it a lot of the women who came along wouldn’t have done.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think top down multiculturalism has rather more to it than that, and that that can be a basis for all kinds of theory that are unhelpful.

But I’m afraid it is you putting the majority of Muslims into the same category, effectively saying that mainstream Islam is made up of ‘religious fanatics’ (from that secular society bit you quoted). It is certainly what much of the french media do, is it not?

In these circumstances it is absolutely vital to distinguish between the fundies and the ‘moderate’ Muslims as well as the ex-Muslims and liberal versions. We have to endure that any drive to defend freedom of expression doesn’t push those moderates into being extremists. But saying all those who don’t think the cartoons should be shown are fanatics does just that. Raising them to be an exemplar does just that.

Would you agree that they can be used (misused if you prefer) to push a racist agenda?

Regarding religious leaders, I would say that 'mainstream Islam' contains a lot of religious fanatics. What brings that home to me most is the opinions of imams held up to be progressive types. About as far as they can get is that homosexuality is a sin but homosexuals shouldn't be executed. Well, thanks for that.

Imo it's a mistake to stop being critical of a belief system just because certain groups of its followers are persecuted or discriminated against.

 

[belboid]

Who’s asking you to stop being critical? It’s a question of how we can be most effectively critical, and not just doing it in a manner that makes us feel good.

 

[danny la rouge]

But I’m afraid it is you putting the majority of Muslims into the same category, effectively saying that mainstream Islam is made up of ‘religious fanatics’ (from that secular society bit you quoted).

Maybe you could point out the bit where I've quoted the NSS "effectively saying that mainstream Islam is made up of ‘religious fanatics’ ".

Here's what I quoted:

"In this case the victim was not targeted for his own expression, but for sharing someone else's. The 2015 murders were an attempt to stop people from drawing Muhammad; this one was an attempt to silence even discussion about drawings of Muhammad”

“Islamic fundamentalism poses a global threat to freedom of expression and freedom of and from religion. In some countries it brings laws which punish blasphemy and apostasy with death. It's brought extrajudicial killings, such as that of Tahir Naseem earlier this year. As Gita Sahgal said this weekend, one response to this attack should be to reaffirm our support for those who resist it.”

Much of the liberal response to Islamist offence-taking in recent years has been a patronising insult to liberals and secularists from Muslim backgrounds.

Anybody who cares about living in cohesive societies where citizens enjoy fundamental freedoms should reject the normalisation of blasphemy taboos. And they should reject religious fanatics' attempts to dictate what can and cannot be taught. Samuel Paty died because he promoted critical enquiry. Those who wish to silence it can't be allowed to win."

It says nothing like what you suggest, effectively or otherwise.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Who’s asking you to stop being critical? It’s a question of how we can be most effectively critical, and not just doing it in a manner that makes us feel good.

Ah ok. That's a fair question. So where to start? Perhaps by listening to those who grew up under these ideas and have spoken out against them, and very often been persecuted as a result?

 

[Shechemite]

I don’t think anyone has posted anything except in a desire to avoid another such murder.

There’s something about this kind of language. Tragedies to be avoided. Lessons must be learned.

 

[Raheem]

Tbf, feels kind of like we're trapped between "Lessons must be learned" and "Lessons must not be learned", with nothing in the middle.

 

[danny la rouge]

Tbf, feels kind of like we're trapped between "Lessons must be learned" and "Lessons must not be learned", with nothing in the middle.

Who do you imagine is saying "lessons must not be learned"?

 

[xenon]

There’s something about this kind of language. Tragedies to be avoided. Lessons must be learned.

lesson plans to be critiqued.

 

[Raheem]

lesson plans to be critiqued.

Lessons to be learned unless it's uncomfortable.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Lessons to be learned unless it's uncomfortable.

Violence works.

 

[Spymaster]

For mash get Smash

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Utterly dishonest. It isn’t me calling all those Muslims who don’t like pictures of Mohamed ‘religious fanatics’ it’s the (pseudo) secularists. You distinguish those from a Muslim background who have broken with many aspects of the faith with everyone else. When looking at who to work with to advance a socialist vision of society, that’s great. But when we’re talking about offering solidarity to oppressed people, it’s shit.

and solidarity means what in this context? warm fuzzy feelings and consolations? If so I doubt many people are interested.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Regarding religious leaders, I would say that 'mainstream Islam' contains a lot of religious fanatics. What brings that home to me most is the opinions of imams held up to be progressive types. About as far as they can get is that homosexuality is a sin but homosexuals shouldn't be executed. Well, thanks for that.

Imo it's a mistake to stop being critical of a belief system just because certain groups of its followers are persecuted or discriminated against.

here we go again with the textual Hermeneutics, as if your idealised liberal imam is going to stop muslim families disowning their gay kids and even give white anglo/americans mythical queer closure. Bog off.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

here we go again with the textual Hermeneutics, as if your idealised liberal imam is going to stop muslim families disowning their gay kids and even give white anglo/americans mythical queer closure. Bog off.

I don't have an idealised liberal imam. I think it's an oxymoron. That was kind of my point.

However, attitudes can and do change, of course. The way attitudes towards homosexuality have changed in the UK in the past 50 years are a very good example of that. Many people used religious justifications for their homophobia here as well. They don't get changed by liberal priests... Lucky I never said they did.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I don't have an idealised liberal imam. I think it's an oxymoron. That was kind of my point.

However, attitudes can and do change, of course. The way attitudes towards homosexuality have changed in the UK in the past 50 years are a very good example of that. Many people used religious justifications for their homophobia here as well. They don't get changed by liberal priests... Lucky I never said they did.

and they are static in the muslim world, i see.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and they are static in the muslim world, i see.

yep that's exactly what i meant.

but you're clearly spoiling for a fight and appear determined to read stuff into people's posts that isn't there. So I doubt this can amount to much of an exchange.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

yep that's exactly what i meant.

No, what you meant is I don't know how to give muslim gays material support so I'll go off about imams, ignoring what little standing they hold amongst the younger generations. A lot of islamic fundamentalism is a rebellion amongst imams being too quietist and capitulating to the west. Far from me be it to talk to you about this though.

Keep the Saudi money coming in and keep the imams my bugbear because there is no central clergy in islam.

 

[Jay Park]

yep that's exactly what i meant.

but you're clearly spoiling for a fight and appear determined to read stuff into people's posts that isn't there. So I doubt this can amount to much of an exchange.

that’s rich, Lyndon Boulevard Jimmy Hat

 

[Jay Park]

I don't have an idealised liberal imam. I think it's an oxymoron. That was kind of my point.

However, attitudes can and do change, of course. The way attitudes towards homosexuality have changed in the UK in the past 50 years are a very good example of that. Many people used religious justifications for their homophobia here as well. They don't get changed by liberal priests... Lucky I never said they did.

I don’t know which tolerant part of the UK you live in, but homophobia is still rampant as far as what I can see. Them chinos need a wash pal. Probably soak them first... 12 hours with baking soda

 

[deeyo]

Do proffer a link

sorry, been working. these ok?

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

Why the Little Dutch Boy Never Put his Finger in the Dike

He is probably the most famous Dutch boy that never lived. The Little Dutch boy who saved the day by putting his finger in a dike. The book in which he appeared, Hans Brinker; or, the Silver Skates: A Story of Life in Holland, featured several stories.

www.dutchgenealogy.nl

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 14 - New King James Version

The Red Sea Crossing - Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: “Speak to the children of Israel, that they turn and camp before Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, opposite Baal Zephon; you shall camp before it by the sea. For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, ‘They are bewildered by...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Pickman's model]

sorry, been working. these ok?

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

Why the Little Dutch Boy Never Put his Finger in the Dike

He is probably the most famous Dutch boy that never lived. The Little Dutch boy who saved the day by putting his finger in a dike. The book in which he appeared, Hans Brinker; or, the Silver Skates: A Story of Life in Holland, featured several stories.

www.dutchgenealogy.nl

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 14 - New King James Version

The Red Sea Crossing - Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: “Speak to the children of Israel, that they turn and camp before Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, opposite Baal Zephon; you shall camp before it by the sea. For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, ‘They are bewildered by...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I don’t know which tolerant part of the UK you live in, but homophobia is still rampant as far as what I can see. Them chinos need a wash pal. Probably soak them first... 12 hours with baking soda

Tunbridge Wells probably. tolerant of the management exec gays not so tolerant of the 'darkies' Brown or black gay should be ostracised forever. standard.

 

[Serge Forward]

I think we all recall their shameful behaviour at that time, and their article on the latest attack is appalling. A have a bit of a dither around the separate seating at some of the rallies, because without it a lot of the women who came along wouldn’t have done.

I just had a look for said latest article. I'll not link to it but it's fucking vile. But then, SWP innit.

 

[tim]

The detail in this is really grim, on the 15 suspects being held. Including the guy who issued the fatwa and some students who helped for money it says. No lone nutter case this one.

France: Suspects behind beheading called for teacher’s death

Fifteen people are being held over the beheading of a French teacher, a crime that led to nationwide protests.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Sue]

What's your point, tim?

 

[danny la rouge]

I just had a look for said latest article. I'll not link to it but it's fucking vile. But then, SWP innit.

Jesus. Just read it. It’s nasty. And also really poorly written. A jumble of sentences.

 

[tim]

What's your point, tim?

Partially a Hebdoesque provocation and partially a reflection of my suspicion of the police, particularly the French police when they are under pressure to show they are doing something.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Partially a Hebdoesque provocation and partially a reflection of my suspicion of the police, particularly the French police when they are under pressure to show they are doing something.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that those of us defending a secular position wrt freedom of speech are also necessarily defending the French state.

 

[Spymaster]

You seem to be under the misapprehension that those of us defending a secular position wrt freedom of speech are also necessarily defending the French state.

Whilst yours is that those of us critical of needless provocation a la Charlie Hebdo are wilfully appeasing religious fundamentalism.