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Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

kabbes said:
If you want to have a debate about what is appropriate to include and exclude from lessons in schools, the literal worst context you can place that debate in is one where a teacher has been murdered for giving a lesson. It’s like choosing to frame a debate about the nature of medicine within the work of Harold Shipman or discussing the crystalline qualities of icebergs by talking about the Titanic.

I would suggest that if you are genuinely interested in lesson planning, go and start a thread about lesson planning that doesn’t even mention murdered schoolteachers. Preferably in a forum related to lesson planning rather than the current affairs one.
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Genuinely get where you're coming from and, at times in this thread, I've certainly made the category error of obsessing on the pedagogical detail at the expense of the extremist murder of Samuel Paty.

That said, it is obviously impossible to overlook the fact that his murder was related to the work he was directed to deliver in the classroom. It's not unreasonable for folk to consider how other teachers similarly directed by the French state might do so securely.
 
kabbes said:
If you want to have a debate about what is appropriate to include and exclude from lessons in schools, the literal worst context you can place that debate in is one where a teacher has been murdered for giving a lesson.
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It's not a conversation anyone had to get involved in if they don't want. But if some posters want to hold him up as an exemplar, others are entitled to disagree. Not everyone has the queuing-for-Diana mentality.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
wow you just did that. You compared a murdered schoolteacher with Princess Diana?

Shame on you.
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No he didn't. He equated the reaction to some on here (you included) to Paty's murder, with that of some to Diana's death, and you're doing it now.

Looks like it might be another one of those days here.
 
Raheem said:
It's not a conversation anyone had to get involved in if they don't want. But if some posters want to hold him up as an exemplar, others are entitled to disagree. Not everyone has the queuing-for-Diana mentality.
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There are always plans for dealing with the aftermath of this sort of terrorist incident, with 'spontaneous' vigils, solidarity demos, etc. It's to channel reactions in certain directions and avoid others. I was struck by the decision to honour sp with the legion d'honneur at the Sorbonne rather than his school, tho.
 
brogdale said:
Genuinely get where you're coming from and, at times in this thread, I've certainly made the category error of obsessing on the pedagogical detail at the expense of the extremist murder of Samuel Paty.

That said, it is obviously impossible to overlook the fact that his murder was related to the work he was directed to deliver in the classroom. It's not unreasonable for folk to consider how other teachers similarly directed by the French state might do so securely.
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If that had been the OP and subsequent focus of the debate, there would have been a lot fewer arguments. It wasn’t, though. It was all about what this murdered guy probably or possibly did that was bad.
 
Spymaster said:
No he didn't. He equated the reaction to some on here (you included) to Paty's murder, with that of some to Diana's death, and you're doing it now.

Looks like it might be another one of those days here.
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Ok, very specifically and carefully, the teacher was killed for doing his job. The princess died in a car accident. An equivalence is drawn between the reactions to the two deaths.

shame on the poster for drawing that equivalence.
 
Raheem said:
It's not a conversation anyone had to get involved in if they don't want. But if some posters want to hold him up as an exemplar, others are entitled to disagree. Not everyone has the queuing-for-Diana mentality.
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Hold him up as a what, now? Is that what you saw the OP as doing? Is that what all the discussion about his lesson planning skills were doing?
 
kabbes said:
If that had been the OP and subsequent focus of the debate, there would have been a lot fewer arguments. It wasn’t, though. It was all about what this murdered guy probably or possibly did that was bad.
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Yes, in part that's true and, as I said I hold my hand up to some of that...but...considering what the state expects of its teachers in the context of the present threat of extreme Islamist terrorism is an inevitable and important consequential to Paty's murder. Can't see why that shouldn't be discussed in a thread about his murder.
 
brogdale said:
...considering what the state expects of its teachers in the context of the present threat of extreme Islamist terrorism is an inevitable and important consequential to Paty's murder. Can't see why that shouldn't be discussed in a thread about his murder.
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Whereas what the actual OP said was:

“Apparently this chap told the muslim children in his class that they should leave if they thought they would be offended. It's early days so the usual caveats around not jumping to conclusions too soon apply, but if it's as reported isn't this unwisely inflammatory”

Everything that has happened since has been within that framework of debate.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Ok, very specifically and carefully, the teacher was killed for doing his job. The princess died in a car accident. An equivalence is drawn between the reactions to the two deaths.
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So what? A lot of people find some of what you post offensive. I know I do. You don't get to frame the debate though. If you're really as upset as you purport to be, this isn't the thread for you. Just put it, or individuals on it, on ignore; if only for your own blood pressure.
 
Spymaster said:
So what? A lot of people find some of what you post offensive. I know I do. You don't get to frame the debate though. If you're really as upset as you puport to be, this isn't the thread for you. Just put it, or individuals on it, on ignore, if only for your own blood pressure.
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Oh christ now you're the thread cop? I'll react how I like to shitty posts, thanks very much.

I'm not framing the debate, I'm telling a poster that I think they're out of order. See the difference? It's an important one because some people, such as certain religious types, don't see a difference between the two - they think they have a right not to be offended.

The difference here would be between me telling a poster they're out of order and me reporting their post and asking for it to be deleted.

ETA: And even that isn't quite it. I didn't say out of order. I said 'shame on you'.
 
kabbes said:
Whereas what the actual OP said was:

“Apparently this chap told the muslim children in his class that they should leave if they thought they would be offended. It's early days so the usual caveats around not jumping to conclusions too soon apply, but if it's as reported isn't this unwisely inflammatory”

Everything that has happened since has been within that framework of debate.
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Kind of how threads inevitably work, isn't it?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Oh christ now you're the thread cop?
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Lol! Pot kettle or what?

I'm not framing the debate, I'm telling a poster that I think they're out of order. See the difference? It's an important one because some people, such as certain religious types, don't see a difference between the two - they think they have a right not to be offended.
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Well you're telling us we're out of order and we're telling you we don't share your sensibilities or care what you think. You obviously agree with our right to hold that opinion and support our right to air it so why not just move on instead of having another day of circular shit-slinging like yesterday?
 
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brogdale said:
Kind of how threads inevitably work, isn't it?
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What, that if you set out with a perspective divorced from its context that frames a murder in terms of faulting the victim, you get a lot of angry responses? Yes, that is how threads work.
 
kabbes said:
Hold him up as a what, now? Is that what you saw the OP as doing? Is that what all the discussion about his lesson planning skills were doing?
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Oh, come off it. It's all over the thread. Plus, outside the confines of the thread, it's only a matter of time before he gets his first miracle attributed. There's no way on Earth that a counterpoint to all that is impermissible.

Seems implausible to me that so many posters here are genuinely so wedded to the principle of not speaking ill of the dead.
 
Raheem said:
Oh, come off it. It's all over the thread. Plus, outside the confines of the thread, it's only a matter of time before he gets his first miracle attributed. There's no way on Earth that a counterpoint to all that is impermissible.
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I wouldn't bother with Kabbes if I were you. He's not going to post anything that hasn't been done in 50 pages and it'll just be a re-run of the last two days. Either he hasn't really read the thread or he's bored and just come in after two days hoping to kick-off another row.
 
kabbes said:
What, that if you set out with a perspective divorced from its context that frames a murder in terms of faulting the victim, you get a lot of angry responses? Yes, that is how threads work.
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Yes, but the thread has also considered the expectation of the victim's employer, something pertinent to his murder.
 
Raheem said:
Seems implausible to me that so many posters here are genuinely so wedded to the principle of not speaking ill of the dead.
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Because if you start a thread off by saying a murdered man was “unwisely inflammatory” that sets a tone.
 
brogdale said:
Yes, but the thread has also considered the expectation of the victim's employer, something pertinent to his murder.
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Whilst simultaneously running and rerunning the idea that the guy was doing something “unwisely inflammatory”. Spy, in particular, has never rowed back from that concept.
 
i’m not blaming the teacher but you know he definitely shouldn’t of taught that lesson in that way. This is still the bedrock of this thread. I condemn the murder. But you know, his lesson plan was wrong.
 
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