Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[Athos]

My experience is that parents beliefs being the arbiter of what should be taught to their children is even worse - as we've seen with gay/trans teaching in schools. Parents have a moral panic that it might 'influence' their children, whilst kids tend to be more inquisitive and accepting.

I agree. But, as far as I can tell, that's Spy's position.

 

[butchersapron]

Of course they should and I doubt most parents would have a problem with that if it's done in a balanced way. Would you have an issue with your kids being taught about capitalism?

Now we have good stuff is good, that's all i ever meant. good stuff, you like that.

 

[danny la rouge]

Because it was quite clear within the context of the ongoing discussion, danny.

And I came onto the thread solely because of someone's minor needling.

OK, in the context of the ongoing discussion, how do you know he excluded people in order to make a “shitty point“? I may have missed a page.

And any minor needling is completely irrelevant to your deliberately misrepresenting me, Kenan Malik, and a murdered teacher.

 

[stethoscope]

Of course they should and I doubt most parents would have a problem with that if it's done in a balanced way. Would you have an issue with your kids being taught about capitalism?

All I remember from school was that nothing other than the status quo of market economies really worked/existed anymore. At least I was able to make my own judgement and question what I was being taught.

 

[belboid]

OK, in the context of the ongoing discussion, how do you know he excluded people in order to make a “shitty point“? I may have missed a page.

I don't. I'm saying if his point was to exclude people, I think it was a shitty one.

 

[Spymaster]

You just said to give the parents the option; so, presumably, you mean that kids shouldn't be taught anything that parents don't want them to be taught.

If they are so vehemently opposed to something I see no reason to force it upon their kids. However, I don't think we're talking about huge numbers of parents. Mrs Spy says that they were excused from sex-ed lessons at school at the behest of the parents although most of the other Sikh kids attended. As several posters here have taken great pains to point out, not all (insert religion) are fundies.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't. I'm saying if his point was to exclude people, I think it was a shitty one.

If your point is to vilify Mexicans, it’s a shitty one.

 

[butchersapron]

Because it was quite clear within the context of the ongoing discussion, danny.

And I came onto the thread solely because of someone's minor needling.

Leave off, you started giving likes to posts well before i laughed you into existence. It's why you were coughed up.

 

[Spymaster]

Now we have good stuff is good, that's all i ever meant. good stuff, you like that.

Shut up, you boring fart.

 

[brogdale]

I don't. I'm saying if his point was to exclude people, I think it was a shitty one.

A far more realistic explanation is that his employer (the French state) have asked him to deliver a lesson that necessitated students from a specific faith background to identify themselves. It's perfectly possible to see that such a situation can't be right whilst also seeing that no-one deserves to die for that at the hands of extremist co-religionists.

For the sake of other French teachers expected to tackle this topic the French state needs to identify how that can happen without the need for students to publicly reveal their family's faith.

 

[belboid]

If your point is to vilify Mexicans, it’s a shitty one.

Quite.

It's a poor choice of teaching aid, imo, but poor choices of teaching aid's shouldn't be a reason for any kind of disciplinary action. I don't think that that is that controversial a statement.

 

[danny la rouge]

Quite.

Its interesting that you change the subject, though.

 

[belboid]

Its interesting that you change the subject, though.

I didnt realise I was doing.

 

[Raheem]

You may not have noticed yourself becoming the topic.

 

[planetgeli]

I do find this topic more complicated than perhaps I should because I'm buried in research all day, every day, at the moment looking at how schools impose (and by implication, teachers) white, male, middle-class value and culture onto pupils (and their families).

So that has no doubt tainted my reading of this.

Not sure how it's tainted you, but interesting subject and side-point. I know of a kid for who part of his exclusion from mainstream, just one incident among many obviously, came from shouting out in class,

"I need an effing wazz!"

Just one incident. But chucked out all the same because this didn't fit the middle class culture of schools where you put your hand up and ask to go to the toilet. Completely ignoring his cultural norm which was that, in his household, it was completely normal to say "I need an effing wazz!"

Minor derail but I thought you might be interested.

 

[butchersapron]

You may not have noticed yourself becoming the topic.

Or your rancid views being normalised.

 

[danny la rouge]

I didnt realise I was doing.

Yes, from speculation about Samuel Paty “excluding” pupils and his reasons for doing so, back to the cartoon.

However, let’s look at the thread: fellow worker has been murdered for doing his job. And people are examining a lesson plan that nobody has seen. Fucking hell.

 

[Athos]

If they are so vehemently opposed to something I see no reason to force it upon their kids. However, I don't think we're talking about huge numbers of parents. Mrs Spy says that they were excused from sex-ed lessons at school at the behest of the parents although most of the other Sikh kids attended. As several posters here have taken great pains to point out, not all (insert religion) are fundies.

So parents' 'right' to religiously indoctrinate their children trumps children's right to a broad education. You're really happy with kids being withdrawn from lessons about, say, evolution, or tolerance of homosexuality, or gender equality?

This sudden lurch towards accommodating fundamentalism is disappointing.

 

[planetgeli]

Yes, from speculation about Samuel Paty “excluding” pupils and his reasons for doing so, back to the cartoon.

However, let’s look at the thread: fellow worker has been murdered for doing his job. And people are examining a lesson plan that nobody has seen. Fucking hell.

No Danny, it's a sudden unexplained upturn in interest in teaching methodology. Nothing to do with victim blaming.

 

[Spymaster]

However, let’s look at the thread: fellow worker has been murdered for doing his job. And people are examining a lesson plan that nobody has seen. Fucking hell.

No they're not. They are discussing whether a) it was a good idea to show the cartoons, and b) if it's appropriate to ask a section of minority kids to identify themselves in class and leave if they wish to do so. Both things that we know happened here.

 

[belboid]

Yes, from speculation about Samuel Paty “excluding” pupils and his reasons for doing so, back to the cartoon.

However, let’s look at the thread: fellow worker has been murdered for doing his job. And people are examining a lesson plan that nobody has seen. Fucking hell.

Sorry that you missed me saying straight off that I would defend him from any kind of retribution. And then me saying that the lesson plan wasn't really the point. But I responded to the discussions that were being had.

 

[Athos]

No they're not. They are discussing whether a) it was a good idea to show the cartoons, and b) if it's appropriate to ask a section of minority kids to identify themselves in class and leave if they wish to do so. Both things that we know happened here.

The '"identify themsleves" bit is bullshit; as if everybody didn't already know which kids were Muslim and which weren't. All he really did was offer people whose religion forbids such images the choice to avoid seeing them. A choice you've explicitly argued for!

 

[Spymaster]

The '"identify themsleves" bit is bullshit; as if everybody didn;t already know which kids were Muslim and which weren't.

It's not bullshit. The account of the prosecutor is clear that Paty himself "contested firmly" that that's exactly what he did.

A right you've explicitly argued for!

I've argued that their parents should be able to withdraw them if they were profoundly opposed to it. Not that a teacher should take it upon himself to divide the class by telling the muslim kids that they were free to leave.

 

[Athos]

It's not bullshit. The account of the prosecutor is clear that Paty himself emphasised that that's exactly what he did.

I've argued that their parents should be able to withdraw them if they were profoundly opposed to it. Not that a teacher should take it upon himself to divide the class by telling the muslim kids that they were free to leave.

Do you have a link to the Prosecutor's comments?

Fourteen year olds are able to decide for themselves whether they're likely to be offended; there's no need to invite parents to impose their religious views on the kids.

 

[Spymaster]

Do you have a link to the Prosecutor's comments?

“The professor contested firmly that he asked Muslim students to identify themselves and leave the class,” Ricard said. He showed several caricatures from Charlie Hebdo but suggested those who might be upset did not have to see them, Ricard said.

Teacher decapitated in Paris named as Samuel Paty, 47

Terrorism investigation opened after 18-year-old attacker shot dead by police

www.theguardian.com

 

[butchersapron]

Anyone seem Raheem's OFFICIAL REPORT. He seems have lost the link.

 

[Edie]

It’s the two-faced nature of liberalism. Espousing tolerance while being an apologist for murder, for example.

Are you meaning liberalism as in small state, free trade, individual responsibility. Or the US ‘left wing’? Cos to me, those arguing for State education to take precedence over family/religious education can’t be called liberal?

Which way have you gone?

I got pulled up when I realised I was making a racist assumption that there were homogeneous views in the Muslim community, and that a lot of Muslims may support freedom of expression and satire. That made me think my views were patronising and racist. But I do keep being swung by the pragmatic point that if you have to divide a class to teach about foe you’ve missed the trick.

Not sure how it's tainted you, but interesting subject and side-point. I know of a kid for who part of his exclusion from mainstream, just one incident among many obviously, came from shouting out in class,

"I need an effing wazz!"

Just one incident. But chucked out all the same because this didn't fit the middle class culture of schools where you put your hand up and ask to go to the toilet. Completely ignoring his cultural norm which was that, in his household, it was completely normal to say "I need an effing wazz!"

Minor derail but I thought you might be interested.

Now that is patronising. As if any kid doesn’t know that’s not acceptable. Don’t be daft and make excuses you don’t do them any favours.

So parents' 'right' to religiously indoctrinate their children trumps children's right to a broad education. You're really happy with kids being withdrawn from lessons about, say, evolution, or tolerance of homosexuality, or gender equality?

This sudden lurch towards accommodating fundamentalism is disappointing.

I dunno if I trust the State to deliver a broad education, and I don’t think the State should trump parents rights to raise their kids as they see fit.

 

[planetgeli]

Now that is patronising. As if any kid doesn’t know that’s not acceptable. Don’t be daft and make excuses you don’t do them any favours.

The kid was 6 years old. Don't comment about stuff you know fuck all about.

 

[stethoscope]

Am I missing something but that paragraph in the Guardian report seems a reasonable 'safeguarding' measure in the circumstances and not deliberately 'excluding' anyone - he gave the kids the choice to avoid seeing the images.

Also 'the professor contested' any suggestion (who from? parents?) that the teacher had 'identified them' and 'asked them to leave'.

 

[Athos]

Teacher decapitated in Paris named as Samuel Paty, 47

Terrorism investigation opened after 18-year-old attacker shot dead by police

www.theguardian.com

It says the opposite to what you think it does.

He contested (i.e. disputed) the idea that he forced them to identify themselves; it goes on the suggest he merely offered anone likely to be offened the opportunity to avoid seeing it.

Perhaps you read it as contended, as I did initially.