Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[butchersapron]

Stuck to the "known" stuff? or speculate?

Just stop posting drivel is what i meant.

Sticking to the known stuff has itself become a bridge to a massive to a racist teacher telling muslims to fuck off out of it. God knows what would happen if we moved into speculation.

 

[Serge Forward]

not to mention the history of the french state with muslims from the pogrom in 1961 through the hijab ban to the present.

In fact, Islam or the Muslim-ness of the victims played little or no part in the State sanctioned mass-murders by the police in the 1961 Paris pogrom. It was a racist, fascist, anti-Algerian, anti-independence and anti-FLN atrocity.

 

[Spymaster]

I don't think he should have done, but not any grounds to do with freedom of expression. Teachers are not there to teach as effectively as they can, not to freely express themselves. They have to pretend to like Jane Eyre, that they never take drugs and that it isn't funny to take the piss out of the head of geography, for example. If they want freedom of expression, they can always take up performance art in the summer holidays.

Basically, if your teaching doesn't actively look for ways to avoid dividing and alienating students, then it's poor teaching. That doesn't by any means imply that tough topics should not be taught, but how should be thought about in detail. I think any lesson that actually plans in the self-exclusion of some students while the rest of the class discuss issues directly related to their place in society sounds, frankly, fucking attrotious.

Now let's see if you get the same stick as I did for saying exactly the same thing!

 

[Red Cat]

I'd read that as the cynicism of the media/politicians who generate fantasies of innocent childhood on the one hand whilst on the other demonising young migrant men. It's about the creation of the idea of the dangerous refugee.

 

[butchersapron]

I feel the massive swp trained finger of belboid hovering over the thread - prepare to get told, right in the chest. Never side with blah blah

 

[butchersapron]

I'd read that as the cynicism of the media/politicians who generate fantasies of innocent childhood on the one hand whilst on the other demonising young migrant men. It's about the creation of the idea of the dangerous refugee.

Simple if read with a good mind. They kept throwing them at us 8 years ago, each time we explained the left-humanitarian impulse behind them. But they will - they must - have their victory. Their BUT must be justified.

 

[Pickman's model]

Simple if read with a good mind. They kept throwing them at us 8 years ago, each time we explained the left-humanitarian impulse behind them. But they will - they must - have their victory. Their BUT must be justified.

fair play. was looking at some other ch cartoons and while it's obvious when pointed out it didn't quite 'click' when i looked at it - hence my question.

 

[danny la rouge]

Now let's see if you get the same stick as I did for saying exactly the same thing!

Please take it as read that my stick extends to all who say the same thing.

 

[butchersapron]

fair play. was looking at some other ch cartoons and while it's obvious when pointed out it didn't quite 'click' when i looked at it - hence my question.

Not a prob - it's those who will keep posting that stuff knowing what's behind it, having been told, who are the problem, not ye.

 

[Athos]

Basically, if your teaching doesn't actively look for ways to avoid dividing and alienating students, then it's poor teaching.

The idea that the best way to avoid division is to impose religious rules on non-believers - thereby leveling down - is bonkers. If people don't want to be informed about the subject matter of the lesson because it offends their religious sensibilities, that's up to them; but they've no right to expect others without those sensibilities to remain ignorant!

 

[likesfish]

Muslims are a minority in Europe you'd think they'd be in favour of tolerance for minority's because they are one.

 

[Serge Forward]

Muslims are a minority in Europe you'd think they'd be in favour of tolerance for minority's because they are one.

Who the fuck is this "they" you're on about? All Muslims?

 

[chilango]

One aspect that I think would be worth further examination is the nature of the power relationships involved in situations like this.

• between teacher and students
• between the students themselves
• between the students and their families
• between the families and others in their communities
• between the teacher and the school management
• between the school and the community
• between the school of the Department of Education

All of these will frame and shape the situation in different ways.

 

[Athos]

Muslims are a minority in Europe you'd think they'd be in favour of tolerance for minority's because they are one.

As, indeed, the vast majority are. Right wing Muslims are no more representative of Muslims as a whole that fascists are representative of non-Muslims. The assumed homogeneity is racist and leads to the idea that all Muslims have values that aren't compatible with modern secular democracies.

 

[danny la rouge]

One aspect that I think would be worth further examination is the nature of the power relationships involved in situations like this.

• between teacher and students
• between the students themselves
• between the students and their families
• between the families and others in their communities
• between the teacher and the school management
• between the school and the community
• between the school of the Department of Education

All of these will frame and shape the situation in different ways.

*Between murderer and murdered.
*Between offence-surfing fundamentalists and liberals.
*Between oppressed minorities and the reactionary right within assumed Muslim “communities”.

 

[chilango]

*Between murderer and murdered.
*Between offence-surfing fundamentalists and liberals.
*Between oppressed minorities and the reactionary right within assumed Muslim “communities”.

yeah.

there's plenty more I'm sure.

 

[Spymaster]

Fact: suggesting that the muslims could leave

Ricard [France's anti-terrorism prosecutor] said: “The first investigation shows the victim had during a 4th year class a discussion about freedom of expression as allowed under the national curriculum.” Later a parent posted a complaint on Facebook about the professor showing a “naked picture” of the Prophet. This same parent went to the school to complain, and later posted a video with the message “stop”. The father then went to the police station with his daughter to lodge an official complaint against the professor for the distribution of “pornographic images”.

“The professor contested firmly that he asked Muslim students to identify themselves and leave the class,” Ricard said. He showed several caricatures from Charlie Hebdo but suggested those who might be upset did not have to see them, Ricard said.

Teacher decapitated in Paris named as Samuel Paty, 47

Terrorism investigation opened after 18-year-old attacker shot dead by police

www.theguardian.com

 

[planetgeli]

Teacher decapitated in Paris named as Samuel Paty, 47

Terrorism investigation opened after 18-year-old attacker shot dead by police

www.theguardian.com

Or to quote other bits of that article.

Before presenting the caricature, the teacher reportedly invited Muslim students to leave the classroom if they wished.

The teacher had gone to the local police station, with the head of the school, earlier this month after a legal complaint about his lesson. He reportedly told investigators he could not understand because the daughter of the father who had complained was not in class the day he showed the cartoon.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Or to quote other bits of that article.

Almost like this had nothing to do with offending students in class or this teacher's misdeeds, and everything to do with extremist shitstirring by Islamists.

 

[Spymaster]

Or to quote other bits of that article.

And? Butchersapron was taking issue with whether Paty asked muslim students to leave the class. The Chief Prosecutor says that he did. I've no issue with whether or not he showed pornigraphic images; that's in dispute. That he asked muslim kids to identify themselves and leave seems not to be. Except by BA.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And? Butchersapron was taking issue with whether Paty asked muslim students to leave the class.

Come on, don't be so clumsy with language. You know it matters. You've left off the 'if they wished' bit, which changes its meaning. 'asked Muslim students to leave the class' is very different from 'telling Muslim students they can leave the class'.

 

[planetgeli]

And? Butchersapron was taking issue with whether Paty asked muslim students to leave the class. The Chief Prosecutor says that he did. I've no issue with whether or not he showed pornigraphic images; that's in dispute. That he asked muslim kids to identify themselves and leave seems not to be. Except by BA.

And? And there's a bit of a difference between the bits you highlighted from Ricard and the bits I've highlighted from the teacher which include the words "if they wished". Your version leaves it open for people to come here and say "slung out" "excluded". The bit I've highlighted implies choice.

And you know that.

 

[danny la rouge]

Or to quote other bits of that article.

“the daughter of the father who had complained was not in class the day he showed the cartoon.”

I am offended by the blasphemy even if no member of my family is affected

 

[cupid_stunt]

Blimey, are you lot still at it?

Not reached agreement yet?

Has anyone actually changed their position?

 

[Pickman's model]

Blimey, are you lot still at it?

Not reached agreement yet?

you'd be disappointed if it had all been talked out

 

[Raheem]

The idea that the best way to avoid division is to impose religious rules on non-believers

is another rubbish straw man.

 

[Spymaster]

And there's a bit of a difference between the bits you highlighted from Ricard and the bits I've highlighted from the teacher which include the words "if they wished". Your version leaves it open for people to come here and say "slung out" "excluded". The bit I've highlighted implies choice.

The bit that you highlighted is not from the teacher. It's from the editorial and seems to be paraphrasing Ricard. But either way, is that really good teaching?

And it's not my version. It's the account given by the Chief Terrorist Prosecutor.

 

[chilango]

Blimey, are you lot still at it?

Not reached agreement yet?

Has anyone actually changed their position?

Slightly, yes.

 

[Edie]

Blimey, are you lot still at it?

Not reached agreement yet?

Has anyone actually changed their position?

Quite a bit closer I’d say

 

[belboid]

I feel the massive swp trained finger of belboid hovering over the thread - prepare to get told, right in the chest. Never side with blah blah

nah, I’m just smiling at all the white liberals mosplaining Islam