butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm not bothering with you until you sharpen up. This is useless.
Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France
- Thread starter Spymaster
- Start date
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Stuck to the "known" stuff? or speculate?
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I'm not asking you to sit in silence. There you go again misrepresenting something.
This is exactly what I face in a PRU day to day, thankfully with less consequences so far than having my head chopped off.
But we do get threats, and sometimes those threats have been carried out. And those threats always start from a point where, well, basically lies (but I'll settle with you for exaggeration and misinformation) have started an escalation.
There are people here (Jay Park springs to mind, but there's been others) who I feel are projecting their own wrongs from schooldays ("slung out of class") onto a situation that is 100x more serious.
If you've got an argument, make it. But don't go making stuff up. That's exactly how this bloke got his head chopped off. Social media bullshit spreading without a chance to be challenged until it's too late.
My anti-censorship line extends to you. I'm not telling you to shut up. I'm saying, as chilango said, stick to what is known.
But I bet it's not another page before more bs speculation and misrepresentation comes from someone.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it'd hardly be urban otherwise
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Yep, sorry about that. It was Butcher's who suggested I do one with reference to you. I'm taking a fucking lot of flack here and it's easy to conflate stuff!
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Raheem
Well-Known Member
For clarity, DLR posted an image that someone on Twitter had said was used in the lesson.
All that's been in the media is that two cartoons were used, and it has been claimed on social media that one of them depicted Mohammed naked as, er, God intended. We don't know if the claim is accurate, but there is such a cartoon.
I'm not sure it makes that much difference which specific cartoons were used, but it is importanr to think about the cartoons' history and signification. They started out as arguably amusing illustrations in a satirical magazine, markedly secularist, with a small and specific readership. But, posthumously, they have become mainly images posted on social media by the far-right as a shorthand for "fuck Muslims".
Which is why it is an error to frame this as being primarily about religious freedom versus freedom of expression (teachers don't have that licence anyway, but desperate tangent). Students from Muslim families in the Parisian basin will be mixed in terms of their attitude to Islam. It's a question of racial/cultural respect way before it is about blasphemy.
Whats your view Raheem?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
If anything this is only an argument for showing them in class, particularly in a time when they are in the news, and let's not forget, the CH cartoonists also lost their fucking lives. What is owed to them wrt the posthumous misrepresentation of their work.
What is the intent here? What are CH actually about? Is this quite the 'fuck Muslims' message that some say it is (not just the far-right racists, but the far-right Islamists as well)? These are all appropriate topics to deal with in a school class about current affairs, I would say. How do you do that without actually looking at the images?
On whether it was appropriate for the teacher to show the cartoon(s) when teaching that lesson.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I think there's some real naivety on this thread from people who believe the whole cartoon furore in France has been about secularism or free speech. Of course the dominant group chooses to present it that way, but is it really a coincidence that this framing increases feelings of antipathy towards muslims in a country where the largest immigrant group is muslim, and where nationalist anti-immigrant parties poll strongly? Please.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
This claim was stringently denied by the dead teacher himself. The claim was made by a 13 year old girl to her parents (who put the claim on social media). It has been denied by the teacher and the school that this girl was even in school on the day the cartoon is alleged to have been shown.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
not to mention the history of the french state with muslims from the pogrom in 1961 through the hijab ban to the present.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Again, all the more reason to openly discuss what Charlie Hebdo are actually about. I'll give you a clue - they have consistently opposed nationalist anti-immigrant parties for decades. And given the price they have paid for just being satirists, aren't they owed something? Are they just to be abandoned and grossly misrepresented?
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Well-intentioned people can also make mistakes. Repeatedly publishing racist cartoons in a country where racism creates or feeds into strong political currents is a mistake.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I thought this thread was a massive spymaster wind up for about 25 pages. An attempt to see how many gullible liberals he could enjoin in relativist dissembling. But it appears not.....
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I've put my argument on a number of occasions. Others have also outlined it well. But let me run through some of the points:
“It offends Muslims”
Not every Muslim holds the same views. Not every Muslim would be offended. Not all would react in the same way. To any number of things that are supposed to “offend Muslims”
As Kenan Malik wrote:
“What is called “offence to a community” is usually a struggle within communities. There are hundreds of thousands, within Muslim communities in the West, and in Muslim-majority countries across the world, challenging religious-based reactionary ideas and institutions; writers, cartoonists, political activists, daily putting their lives on the line in facing down blasphemy laws, standing up for equal rights and fighting for democratic freedoms”.
This is not just a side note. This is central. There are real people struggling against the reactionary right as we speak. Don’t write them off.
“He told Muslims to leave”.
You have that from whom? Does it sound likely? Isn’t it more likely he said “some of you may not want to see this material, and that’s fine”. Don’t assume either that it was addressed to all Muslims there or to only Muslims.
“You shouldn’t be offensive”.
We might not set out to be offensive, but because of lived diversity sometimes my honestly held beliefs will offend others. Sometimes yours will offend me. That’s something we all have to get used to if we want diversity rather than homogenous monoculture.
Sometimes you just cannot not offend. We don’t all believe the same things. Freedom of expression – the lesson it is reported Samuel Paty was giving – includes giving offence and being offended.
“It was provocative”.
Please read up on slut shaming, victim blaming, and Adorno’s work on The Authoritarian Personality.
It is not the murdered who is the issue here. It is the murderer.
“It was gratuitous”.
How do you know? And how does that charge sit with the reports that he gave people the option not to view the material?
I’ll give the last word to Kenan Malik:
“It’s the unwillingness of liberals to stand up for basic liberal principles, their readiness to betray progressives within minority communities, that nurtures reactionaries, both within Muslim communities and outside it. The more that society gives licence for people to be offended, the more that people will seize the opportunity to feel offended. And the more deadly they will become in expressing their outrage.
Liberal pusillanimity also helps nurture anti-Muslim sentiment, feeding the racist idea that all Muslims are reactionary, that Muslim immigration should be stemmed, and Muslim communities more harshly policed”.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Excellent strawman stuff. ‘Racist cartoons’ ‘repeatedly published’, predicable backlash from strong ‘political currents’.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep. Again, a perfectly legitimate thing to bring up in a discussion. Is this an attack on Islam, or is it an attack on Islamists?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Charlie Hebdo backlash over 'racist' Alan Kurdi cartoon
French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo faces a backlash after depicting drowned migrant boy Alan Kurdi as an adult committing a sex assault in Germany.
www.bbc.co.uk
i'd be very interested in how this is anti-racist or indeed pro-immigrant
e2a & cheers to butchersapron for pointing it out
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Have you got the right people yet? Or is is just a general all other people are racist and so are the things that they do now that i'm a trot thing?
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
It's always difficult talking about cultural respect Raheem ime. I can respect other cultures' when it comes to food, music, behaviour in other people's homes, art, sport etc. But religion? Should I respect the religion of the Aztecs, for example? They probably had stuff about being kind to your Mum, but they also had bits about ritual killing on a colossal scale. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and the rest have good bits too, mostly common to most societies, but they're also full of garbage. Let those who espouse this crap be free to speak their mind. But respect?
Can you translate? That doesn’t look great.View attachment 235050
Charlie Hebdo backlash over 'racist' Alan Kurdi cartoon
French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo faces a backlash after depicting drowned migrant boy Alan Kurdi as an adult committing a sex assault in Germany.www.bbc.co.uk
i'd be very interested in how this is anti-racist or indeed pro-immigrant
By criticising hypocritical tears over a child who with a few years age difference would have been cast as a threatening predator?View attachment 235050
Charlie Hebdo backlash over 'racist' Alan Kurdi cartoon
French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo faces a backlash after depicting drowned migrant boy Alan Kurdi as an adult committing a sex assault in Germany.www.bbc.co.uk
i'd be very interested in how this is anti-racist.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I don't think he should have done, but not any grounds to do with freedom of expression. Teachers are not there to teach as effectively as they can, not to freely express themselves. They have to pretend to like Jane Eyre, that they never take drugs and that it isn't funny to take the piss out of the head of geography, for example. If they want freedom of expression, they can always take up performance art in the summer holidays.
Basically, if your teaching doesn't actively look for ways to avoid dividing and alienating students, then it's poor teaching. That doesn't by any means imply that tough topics should not be taught, but how should be thought about in detail. I think any lesson that actually plans in the self-exclusion of some students while the rest of the class discuss issues directly related to their place in society sounds, frankly, fucking attrotious.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It refers to the crocodile tears of the politicians who profess humanity then enact laws against it. CH has been one of the lead supporters of many pro-immigration groups.View attachment 235050
Charlie Hebdo backlash over 'racist' Alan Kurdi cartoon
French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo faces a backlash after depicting drowned migrant boy Alan Kurdi as an adult committing a sex assault in Germany.www.bbc.co.uk
i'd be very interested in how this is anti-racist or indeed pro-immigrant
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This was done 8 years ago when the toxic-liberals again said BUT.
Yes I can really see that POV.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What Inva says. You have to get CH before you can criticise them. Often, as with this poster, the exact opposite of their meaning is taken because you haven't decoded the work properly. Cultural differences, eh? The readership will certainly be able to decode them. Certain British people get it wrong and interpret the images at 180° wrong angle.
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