Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[Spymaster]

In a manner to suggest that other horrors were around the corner.

In a manner to suggest that it was probably not the only one!

Fucking hell

 

[danny la rouge]

Wow! It's like you're reading a different thread to me.

All depictions of Muhammad or Allah are forbidden by certain readings of Islam. To fundies that’s not just their own behaviour that’s curtailed. It’s death penalty in the street for anyone who makes or shows such an image. I’m not in the least convinced Samuel Paty’s life would have been spared if all he’d done was just talk about the images. There seems to have been a faction who were untroubled by facts who just wanted Jihad on the streets.

 

[butchersapron]

In a manner to suggest that it was probably not the only one!

Fucking hell

Of course, pure neutral language after post after post of suggesting something else. Of course.

Edit: even this one is designed to sound like offences to be taken into consideration. Do you even know that you're doing this now?

 

[Spymaster]

Of course, pure neutral language after post after post of suggesting something else. Of course.

Edit: even this one is designed to sound like offences to be taken into consideration. Do you even know that you're doing this now?

What a load of dogshit!

 

[Serge Forward]

The amount of liberal top-down multiculturalist shite on this thread beggars belief and carries definite racist undertones. This whole 'let's not offend the (amorphous) Muslims' schtick demonstrates so much that is wrong with the left in Britain. In reality, it's more a case of 'let's not offend islamofascsists and those who (actively or passively) subscribe to their fucked up ideology.' For fuck sake, Muslims are not of a type and don't all get 'offended' by such things as the CH images by wishing ill or even get to the point of sawing off a teacher's head. To be honest, I've no doubt a fair few of yer liberal Muslim stereotypes are more inclined to just go 'meh' about such pictures in real life and be horrified of the actions of this murdering reactionary cunt. But, hey, it's nice to lump all Muslims in together with all the fundamentalist and islamofascist twats. On a slight variation on this, an old comrade of mine from Iraq gets seriously pissed off at being refered to as a 'muslim' or being 'from a muslim country', etc. Ultimately, it's all patronising sub-racist guff.

A teacher was doing his job and some warped cunt murdered him for it. That's the issue and all the rest is fucking humbug.

 

[Spymaster]

I’m not in the least convinced Samuel Paty’s life would have been spared if all he’d done was just talk about the images. There seems to have been a faction who were untroubled by facts who just wanted Jihad on the streets.

If all he'd done was talk about them and still got killed I'd be standing shoulder to shoulder with you.

 

[butchersapron]

If all he'd done was talk about them and still got killed I'd be standing shoulder to shoulder with you.

The if, suggest some other malevolent act. You're doing it again. Because cased closed by dci spy.

 

[danny la rouge]

The amount of liberal top-down multiculturalist shite on this thread beggars belief and carries definite racist undertones. This whole 'let's not offend the (amorphous) Muslims' schtick demonstrates so much that is wrong with the left in Britain. In reality, it's more a case of 'let's not offend islamofascsists and those who (actively or passively) subscribe to their fucked up ideology.' For fuck sake, Muslims are not of a type and don't all get 'offended' by such things as the CH images by wishing ill or even get to the point of sawing off a teacher's head. To be honest, I've no doubt a fair few of yer liberal Muslim stereotypes are more inclined to just go 'meh' about such pictures in real life and be horrified of the actions of this murdering reactionary cunt. But, hey, it's nice to lump all Muslims in together with all the fundamentalist and islamofascist twats. On a slight variation on this, an old comrade of mine from Iraq gets seriously pissed off at being refered to as a 'muslim' or being 'from a muslim country', etc. Ultimately, it's all patronising sub-racist guff.

A teacher was doing his job and some warped cunt murdered him for it. That's the issue and all the rest is fucking humbug.

Well summed up.

 

[danny la rouge]

If all he'd done was talk about them and still got killed I'd be standing shoulder to shoulder with you.

Because showing anyone a cartoon is the problem.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm glad that serge picked up on the racist element (muslims = nutters be careful/bend the knee) of this.

This is, in part, part how we got in this problem, taking or making people as community leaders. This used to be left-wing abc.

 

[Idris2002]

It’s like the people who said Salman Rushdie should have known better than to write the Satanic Verses. Or that a woman who was raped “knew what she was doing” when she acted in a way someone seems “provocative”. Or that gay people in the many fundamentalist countries that kill gay people should have been more discrete. And so on.

The issue is the murderer.

On the subject of Rushdie, no one talks about it anymore, but I well remember that at the time there were a couple of people in the Tory party whose line was "let the Iranians kill him". And before the Ayatollah's fatwa, the original protest against the Satanic Verses came from a very small corner of the Muslim world, a clique of Imams in South Africa who had taken the dirty shilling of the apartheid regime.

 

[xenon]

In a manner to suggest that it was probably not the only one!

Fucking hell

Worse ones.Come on man, your’e posts assume the teacher deliberately chose a deliberate inlfamatory and provocative approach. Despite any evidence. What’s going on?

 

[Spymaster]

Because showing anyone a cartoon is the problem.

Because showing those cartoons, to those children and suggesting that the muslims could leave, in the current climate was unnecessary to effect a meaningful debate about free speech. That, in no way, is incompatible with condemning his murder.

 

[butchersapron]

Worse ones.Come on man, your’e posts assume the teacher deliberately chose a deliberate inlfamatory and provocative approach. Despite any evidence. What’s going on?

It's alright, he says he hasn't.

 

[butchersapron]

Because showing those cartoons, to those children and suggesting that the muslims could leave, in the current climate was unnecessary to effect a meaningful debate about free speech. That, in no way, is incompatible with condemning his murder.

Once more. Something that can't and hasn't happened happens.

 

[planetgeli]

Spy, I was quite pleased you backed down a bit and responded yesterday to one of my posts with this.

Ok, so his intent may not have been to cause offence but he clearly realised that there was scope to do so, evidenced by the fact that he felt it necessary to tell the muslim kids to leave if they thought they would be.

But then it's taken you less than 24 hours to move back to this.

Not trolling, but you're right. I'd never have thought that I'd be the one to explain to a bunch of fucking lefties why gratuitously offending a minority may not be the best way to get one's point across.

It's a complete bs characterization of the debate. And you, and others, have done it again and again, either with exaggeration or simply presenting things in that classroom as fact that you can't possibly know but feel it suits your argument to do so.

I've remained polite and consistent through all this shit. I've answered education points with education points and defended this teacher politically through solidarity and through basic fucking humanity which someone deserves anytime, let alone when it's too late because they've had their head chopped off by someone completely unattached to the school, but attached to a horrendous ideology that puts workers like me in danger. It's not uncommon, working with the kids of families that I do, to get threats based on bullshit misinformation and exaggeration.

All these small steps of exaggeration are the first steps of justification that these murderers of workers use.

Can you, and others, please stop it. See, polite. Because that's really not how I want to put it.

 

[butchersapron]

Fact: suggesting that the muslims could leave

 

[littlebabyjesus]

On the subject of Rushdie, no one talks about it anymore, but I well remember that at the time there were a couple of people in the Tory party whose line was "let the Iranians kill him". And before the Ayatollah's fatwa, the original protest against the Satanic Verses came from a very small corner of the Muslim world, a clique of Imams in South Africa who had taken the dirty shilling of the apartheid regime.

I certainly remember politicians questioning the expense of protecting him. But yes, a good point about all this is that the enraged offence-taking doesn't arise out of nowhere. It is coordinated and fomented by the very worst reactionary forces, and often the exact nature of the offence is pretty irrelevant. How many of those who protested about The Satanic Verses had the first idea about how or why it was blasphemous? Vanishingly small numbers of them.

 

[Spymaster]

Fact: suggesting that the muslims could leave

He didn't do that then?

 

[butchersapron]

He didn't do that then?

Let's see a different way of presenting it. Pupils were given options to participate or not given their and their families sensibilities. But no, the Muslims were expelled or gtfo if they didn't like it. You are just doing this over and over. geli is right. Not your finest hour. Or 24. Leave it, go.

 

[chilango]

Spy, I was quite pleased you backed down a bit and responded yesterday to one of my posts with this.



But then it's taken you less than 24 hours to move back to this.



It's a complete bs characterization of the debate. And you, and others, have done it again and again, either with exaggeration or simply presenting things in that classroom as fact that you can't possibly know but feel it suits your argument to do so.

I've remained polite and consistent through all this shit. I've answered education points with education points and defended this teacher politically through solidarity and through basic fucking humanity which someone deserves anytime, let alone when it's too late because they've had their head chopped off by someone completely unattached to the school, but attached to a horrendous ideology that puts workers like me in danger. It's not uncommon, working with the kids of families that I do, to get threats based on bullshit misinformation and exaggeration.

All these small steps of exaggeration are the first steps of justification that these murderers of workers use.

Can you, and others, please stop it. See, polite. Because that's really not how I want to put it.

Agree with this.

I don't think that specualting on the unknwn specifics of this particular incident is ok.

I'd rather take some of the known elements in this and many other cases and have a broader discussion around those, whilst being ready to offer solidarity regard this case should the chance arise.

 

[Spymaster]

Let's see a different way of presenting it. Pupils were given options to participate or not given their and their families sensibilities. But no, the Muslims were expelled or gtfo if they didn't like it. You are just doing this over and over. geli is right. Not your finest hour. Or 24. Leave it, go.

You're fucking nuts!

 

[Spymaster]

I'd rather take some of the known elements in this and many other cases and have a broader discussion around those, whilst being ready to offer solidarity regard this case should the chance arise.

Which known elements?

 

[two sheds]

That was one of them. We don't know how many others were involved.

Just to point out that this was specifically referring to the cartoons, in response to Edie's question:

Can anyone post the cartoon here? Was it the one DLR posted earlier?

 

[Spymaster]

Spy, I was quite pleased you backed down a bit and responded yesterday to one of my posts with this.



But then it's taken you less than 24 hours to move back to this.



It's a complete bs characterization of the debate. And you, and others, have done it again and again, either with exaggeration or simply presenting things in that classroom as fact that you can't possibly know but feel it suits your argument to do so.

I've remained polite and consistent through all this shit. I've answered education points with education points and defended this teacher politically through solidarity and through basic fucking humanity which someone deserves anytime, let alone when it's too late because they've had their head chopped off by someone completely unattached to the school, but attached to a horrendous ideology that puts workers like me in danger. It's not uncommon, working with the kids of families that I do, to get threats based on bullshit misinformation and exaggeration.

All these small steps of exaggeration are the first steps of justification that these murderers of workers use.

Can you, and others, please stop it. See, polite. Because that's really not how I want to put it.

Sorry mate but I'm not going to sit in silence whilst my position is characterised as 'appeasement of Islamofash' or 'victim blaming'.

It's simply not.

 

[Jay Park]

Oh FFS. It's in the thread that you're stinking out.

oh, okay.

 

[Jay Park]

I think he does, he just prefers not to have to think it through.

ah, okay

 

[chilango]

Which known elements?

• teacher.
• alleged to have shown CH cartoon in class.
• this cartoon has provoked violent/muderous actions from some islamists (including in the region that thsi attack took place)
• received threats.
• brutally murdered.

there may be other stuff. But I'm not sure we can speculate on the desgn of his lesson etc. - even if that were relevant, which I don't think it is.

 

[Jay Park]

Which fundies on here have taken as real. Odd how that works. He def did this and showed that. I'm not in any way contributing to ANYTHING by saying that over and over.

so you posit an argument then, old fella, you tell us how you feel this played out rather than being your contradictory, cryptic, self

 

[butchersapron]

• teacher.
• alleged to have shown CH cartoon in class.
• this cartoon has provoked violent/muderous actions from some islamists (including in the region that thsi attack took place)
• received threats.
• brutally murdered.

there may be other stuff. But I'm not sure we can speculate on the desgn of his lesson etc. - even if that were relevant, which I don't think it is.

That's exactly what spy has done - and nothing else.