Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[Athos]

Don't think so; anyone invited/asked/offered to leave the class is, by definition, excluded from the learning experience.

Not showing the cartoons would mean that everyone was excluded from the learning experience, not just those who chose to be because of their religious beliefs!

 

[Spymaster]

Isn't it the racist Danish cartoons that CH have been repeatedly reprinting? Charlie Hebdo: Magazine republishes controversial Mohammed cartoons
As I said above, I now realise we don't know which cartoons were shown, but it's not an unreasonable guess.

It doesn't matter which cartoons he used. The fact that some are so keen to point out that it wasn't the Danish ones suggests that using those ones may have been beyond the pale. In that case there is agreement that there is a line, just not on where it should be drawn.

 

[chilango]

If workers safety was the key issue would that not be best served by a ban on showing the cartoons? That is chilango main point on this thread as I see it, that we have to recognise the reality of the world.

Yeah. Though I wouldn't argue for, or support, a ban.

 

[danny la rouge]

If workers safety was the key issue would that not be best served by a ban on showing the cartoons? That is chilango main point on this thread as I see it, that we have to recognise the reality of the world.

You're talking about banning showing "the cartoons" - which ones, and just cartoons, what else? - in the name of workers' safety? I'm sorry, but I find that astonishing. Can you not see the slope here?

 

[chilango]

Certainly, there appear obvious issues of management of the murdered worker; AFAIK teachers in this country would not be in a position to invite/ask sections of their classes to leave the room.

IME (and I stand to be corrected by others experience) most teachers in most schools would be in some sort of trouble if they showed that cartoon in a classroom (or shared it on social media).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're talking about banning showing "the cartoons" - which ones, and just cartoons, what else? - in the name of workers' safety? I'm sorry, but I find that astonishing. Can you not see the slope here?

Dear Islamists, your violence works. So you can stop the violence now.

 

[Athos]

If workers safety was the key issue would that not be best served by a ban on showing the cartoons? That is chilango main point on this thread as I see it, that we have to recognise the reality of the world.

Safety through appeasement is no answer to this threat.

 

[danny la rouge]

It doesn't matter which cartoons he used. The fact that some are so keen to point out that it wasn't the Danish ones suggests that using those ones may have been beyond the pale. In that case there is agreement that there is a line, just not on where it should be drawn.

I can imagine a context in which the Danish cartoon mentioned could be appropriately used. I'm pretty sure any imaginative educator could.

 

[emanymton]

You're talking about banning showing "the cartoons" - which ones, and just cartoons, what else? - in the name of workers' safety? I'm sorry, but I find that astonishing. Can you not see the slope here?

No I'm not. That just seems to be the logical conclusion of focusing on workers safety.

Also banning things for use in schools is very different from banning them in general.

 

[chilango]

You're talking about banning showing "the cartoons" - which ones, and just cartoons, what else? - in the name of workers' safety? I'm sorry, but I find that astonishing. Can you not see the slope here?

I can imagine an SLT risk assessing this.

 

[Spymaster]

Also banning things for use in schools is very different from banning them in general.

Yes.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes.

Sort of like how education feeds into wider society?

 

[chilango]

Things are already banned in schools. With more to come.

 

[butchersapron]

Make sure they don't know much now and they won't ask later. Save the kids.

 

[butchersapron]

Things are already banned in schools. With more to come.

So let's do more of it. And at the murderous behest of fundies. Got it.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

.

No I'm not. That just seems to be the logical conclusion of focusing on workers safety.

Also banning things for use in schools is very different from banning them in general.

Workers safety might also mean not drawing, publishing, printing, distributing or selling the cartoons, or anything else that might offend, just in case.

 

[Spymaster]

I can imagine a context in which the Danish cartoon mentioned could be appropriately used. I'm pretty sure any imaginative educator could.

Can you imagine a context in which an educator could create a discourse on FoE without using a picture of Mohammed with a bomb in his hat and inviting muslims to leave if they didn't like it?

 

[chilango]

So let's do more of it. And at the murderous behest of fundies. Got it.

Nope. Not at all.

Just recognise that we can't defend what we don't have, if we want teachers to be able to show what they like (i.e. use their judgement about what's appropriate for their classroom) then that's something we need to create, not something that exists that we're losing.

 

[brogdale]

Not showing the cartoons would mean that everyone was excluded from the learning experience, not just those who chose to be because of their religious beliefs!

Not sure I agree with that tbh, they'd obviously all have had the same learning experience.
Obviously this is with the benefit of hindsight/distance etc. but I can imagine how having the absence of the images as a central theme of the learning experience could have prompted a really interesting, and inclusive, discussion on the theme of free speech; a case study in itself.
Those students so inclined could search such images themselves after the discussion.

 

[butchersapron]

Can you imagine a context in which an educator could create a discourse on FoE without using a picture of Mohammed with a bomb in his hat and inviting muslims to leave if they didn't like it?

Or, indeed one in which muslims are given an option to participate? This shitty language. Never mind the facts chose to back it up and lend weight being wrong.

 

[Spymaster]

Or, indeed one in which muslims are given an option to participate?

Yes. Or indeed that. But that's not what happened. They were given the option to leave.

 

[chilango]

Whilst people's minds are foussed can I take this opportunity to remind people of this. Again, I don't know what we can do about it. But let's not forget it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes. Or indeed that. But that's not what happened. They were given the option to leave.

Um, that is what happened, assuming they weren't ordered to leave. We don't know exactly how this was handled by the teacher in the class. At various points on this thread, you've just assumed that he handled it badly.

 

[8ball]

Yes. Or indeed that. But that's not what happened. They were given the option to leave.

I recall from school there being bad lesson ideas, incorrect information, shambolic lesson plans, things that probably sounded good in a teacher's head but didn't work out quite as they intended, we covered assorted controversies, issues of racism were discussed rather clumsily at times, I could go on...

All of that aside - maybe this thread is just 'too urban' for me these days, but we're talking about this in the context of a man who was fucking beheaded.

I think I'm experiencing what the youngsters describe as "I can't even".

 

[Red Cat]

This discussion has reminded me of my concern that parents complained about a brilliant and unusual teacher at my girls' primary school. When my eldest was in year 5, about 3 years ago, they had discussions about LGBTQ and trans issues, and gender and sexism, amongst other things, apparently she thought that 10 year olds were old enough to vote and should have the opportunity to discuss these issues. This was in a quite working class area of mixed ethnicity and religion, the teacher was British Asian, and she also talked to the class about her background and how important books and education had been for her. She left half way through the year. I wrote to the head about how great she was and a very 'neutral' response.

 

[brogdale]

Yes. Or indeed that. But that's not what happened. They were given the option to leave.

For me, that's where Samuel Paty appears to have been let down by his employers. He'd clearly been charged with delivering a contentious, potentially divisive topic but was apparently under the impression that it was acceptable to include content that required an invitation to self-exclusion. Either that, or he'd deliberately ignored guidance to the contrary.

 

[butchersapron]

This discussion has reminded me of my concern that parents complained about a brilliant and unusual teacher at my girls' primary school. When my eldest was in year 5, about 3 years ago, they had discussions about LGBTQ and trans issues, and gender and sexism, amongst other things, apparently she thought that 10 year olds were old enough to vote and should have the opportunity to discuss these issues. This was in a quite working class area of mixed ethnicity and religion, the teacher was British Asian, and she also talked to the class about her background and how important books and education had been for her. She left half way through the year. I wrote to the head about how great she was and a very 'neutral' response.

The 'left' there sounds really demoralising...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This discussion has reminded me of my concern that parents complained about a brilliant and unusual teacher at my girls' primary school. When my eldest was in year 5, about 3 years ago, they had discussions about LGBTQ and trans issues, and gender and sexism, amongst other things, apparently she thought that 10 year olds were old enough to vote and should have the opportunity to discuss these issues. This was in a quite working class area of mixed ethnicity and religion, the teacher was British Asian, and she also talked to the class about her background and how important books and education had been for her. She left half way through the year. I wrote to the head about how great she was and a very 'neutral' response.

Kind of teacher you still remember decades later. Depressing as fuck that she should receive complaints.

 

[butchersapron]

Um, that is what happened, assuming they weren't ordered to leave. We don't know exactly how this was handled by the teacher in the class. At various points on this thread, you've just assumed that he handled it badly.

It's been repeatedly stated that he basically told muslim pupils to fuck off and leave the white kids to it.

 

[Athos]

Not sure I agree with that tbh, they'd obviously all have had the same learning experience.
Obviously this is with the benefit of hindsight/distance etc. but I can imagine how having the absence of the images as a central theme of the learning experience could have prompted a really interesting, and inclusive, discussion on the theme of free speech; a case study in itself.
Those students so inclined could search such images themselves after the discussion.

Yes, they'd share the same less rich experience. Because of leveling down, to accommodate those who are offended that others don't comply with their religious rules! Apparently, an ideal so worthy that, for some here, it justifies tacitly blanming a worker for his own brutal murder by a right-wing extremist.

And showing the images to those who wanted to see them would in no way preclude the sort of discussion you mention.