Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[redsquirrel]

Which cartoons are you referring to? I find the image of Muhammed with his hat/turban depicted as a terrorist bomb to be offensive.

Are you confusing the Danish cartoons with the CH ones?

 

[chilango]

A fellow worker murdered for their work. I get some people's response but those supposed to be on the left? It's breaking my fucking brain this. No amount of, i don't support the murder of course but is removing that.

What's to discuss then? Should we all just queue up to condemn it in increasingly strident terms?

 

[butchersapron]

What's to discuss then? Should we all just queue up to condemn it in increasingly strident terms?

It'd be a fucking start yes.

The sort of thing spymaster normally likes.

 

[Spymaster]

Stand and Be Counted

Marieme Helie Lucas on Samuel Paty's murder as rooted in a longer history #SamuelPaty

feministdissent.org

I don't disagree with any of that.

 

[LDC]

Yeah I was wondering if Spymaster had had his account hacked tbf.

 

[Spymaster]

It'd be a fucking start yes.

The sort of thing spymaster normally likes.

And which I've done here in no uncertain terms.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh it goes without saying - no it fucking doesn't and hasn't. It's exatctly what has been hidden - as it was 8 years ago - under this faux debate.

 

[Brainaddict]

As Butchers points out, that wasn't CH. It was some Danish cartoonist. So he'd have been really wrong to have used it to illustrate a point about Charlie Hebdo.

Kind of telling, though, how that cartoon gets lumped in with CH, whose work is generally more subtle and politically grounded than that, as the actual cartoon that was actually done by them and was actually shown to the class demonstrates.

Sorry, perhaps I read too quickly. I saw 'cartoons' plural being used and CH republished the Danish cartoons, so thought the ones showed might include the Danish cartoons. But it isn't clear what cartoons were shown.

 

[chilango]

It'd be a fucking start yes.

The sort of thing spymaster normally likes.

Alright.

Its fucking horrendous and a real threat to all of us and I'm glad the pigs offed the perp.

Now what?

 

[emanymton]

One if the reasons a lot of the analogies don't work very well is that the core idea of not making pictures of some bloke does not oppress anyone. Not one is harmed by it. I cannot think of anything else likely to offend or upset people that does not touch on the rights of other groups.

 

[butchersapron]

Alright.

Its fucking horrendous and a real threat to all of us and I'm glad the pigs offed the perp.

Now what?

Have you retained your union membership? One of yours just got killed at/result of work. That would also be a good place to start.

 

[Athos]

I don't disagree with any of that.

But is it prudent not to submit to extreme right Islamism - won't that offend Muslims?

 

[emanymton]

Yeah I was wondering if Spymaster had had his account hacked tbf.

I still think it might be a very subtle troll.

 

[chilango]

Have you retained your union membership? One of yours just got killed at work. That would also be a good place to start.

I'm not a teacher anymore - and don't intend to be so in the future. So, no, I'm not in a teaching union. I'm in the IWW and will happily join in anything that is organised from that quarter..

 

[Athos]

One if the reasons a lot of the analogies don't work very well is that the core idea of not making pictures of some bloke does not oppress anyone. Not one is harmed by it. I cannot think of anything else likely to offend or upset people that does not touch on the rights of other groups.

It offends the right to live free of the constraints of a religion you don't believe in!

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not a teacher anymore - and don't intend to be so in the future. So, no, I'm not in a teaching union. I'm in the IWW and will happily join in anything that is organised from that quarter..

So workers safety, rather than ideal type discussion about pedagogy is still in your ball park right?

 

[brogdale]

I wonder, did he say, if you don't like it you can fuck off out of it, or something like, i recognise that there are wider family etc reasons that make viewing this problematic so the choice is yours to opt out. The ultimate danger of course, in them not opting to do so lay on him. Didn't it? Teacher solidarity fucking hell.

However it was addressed, the point at which he found himself considering that part of the class might best be excluded from the lesson should have caused reflection on how the topic was tackled. Self-evidently, the issue of the satirical representation of Muhammad can be discussed, inclusively, without recourse to source material.

OTOH, it's possible to argue that the source material was fit for all students to see and discuss, but that position would not lead the teacher to invite self-exclusion.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It offends the right to live free of the constraints of a religion you don't believe in!

Pretty much the definition of secularism.

 

[Brainaddict]

Are you confusing the Danish cartoons with the CH ones?

Isn't it the racist Danish cartoons that CH have been repeatedly reprinting? Charlie Hebdo: Magazine republishes controversial Mohammed cartoons
As I said above, I now realise we don't know which cartoons were shown, but it's not an unreasonable guess.

 

[chilango]

So workers safety, rather than ideal type discussion about pedagogy is still in your ball park right?

Yeah...and?

 

[butchersapron]

However it was addressed, the point at which he found himself considering that part of the class might best be excluded from the lesson should have caused reflection on how the topic was tackled. Self-evidently, the issue of the satirical representation of Muhammad can be discussed, inclusively, without recourse to source material.

OTOH, it's possible to argue that the source material was fit for all students to see and discuss, but that position would not lead the teacher to invite self-exclusion.

Why have you chose the word excluded rather than saying something like given an option. But leading that ain't it

 

[butchersapron]

Isn't it the racist Danish cartoons that CH have been repeatedly reprinting? Charlie Hebdo: Magazine republishes controversial Mohammed cartoons
As I said above, I now realise we don't know which cartoons were shown, but it's not an unreasonable guess.

We do know, FFS.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't disagree with any of that.

Good. I'd hope not!

 

[emanymton]

So workers safety, rather than ideal type discussion about pedagogy is still in your ball park right?

If workers safety was the key issue would that not be best served by a ban on showing the cartoons? That is chilango main point on this thread as I see it, that we have to recognise the reality of the world.

 

[brogdale]

Why have you chose the word excluded rather than saying something like given an option. But leading that ain't it

Don't think so; anyone invited/asked/offered to leave the class is, by definition, excluded from the learning experience.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah...and?

That would be a good thing to discuss - it's relation to teaching in the uk. Are teachers in the uk at risk? Why? More so than before? Where? What's being done to help if so. That sort of thing.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't think so; anyone invited/asked/offered to leave the class is, by definition, excluded from the learning experience.

All leading language justifies itself by arguing that it's correct. Exclusion carries definite connotations that you, as teacher, are, or should be aware of. You chose to use that term as surely as fox news chooses its terms.

 

[emanymton]

It offends the right to live free of the constraints of a religion you don't believe in!

Yeah didn't put that as well as I would like as in a rush and need to get back to work. But my point is it is very different from say homophobic stuff which clearly has a directly negative impact on others.

 

[chilango]

That would be a good thing to discuss - it's relation to teach in the uk. Are teachers in the uk at risk? Why? More so than before? Where? What's being done to help if so. That sort of thing.

That would be a good place to start. A far better focus than "freedom of speech" and "rights".

...and not just teachers but all who work in educational settings (TAs, lunch staff etc.).

 

[brogdale]

Certainly, there appear obvious issues of management of the murdered worker; AFAIK teachers in this country would not be in a position to invite/ask sections of their classes to leave the room.