Technocracy - Is this the future?

[chilango]

I don't disagree with what you are saying. But I think you are putting a conspiracy-personal-tabloid angle on it. Trying to make just about a specific group of people as the villains and benefactors, and making that group homogenous and in agreement. The fact is that our entire economic system is bound up in these processes.

Of course. But the fact remains that a small group of people with pretty damn closely aligned objectives have made conscious decisions to use the inherent flaws and instabilities of capitalism as an opportunity to launch a massive assault on the working and middle classes for personal enrichment

 

[contadino]

I would feel sad. What have we learnt from that?

We learned that your argument holds no water. Well, I say 'we', but actually I mean 'you'.

 

[chilango]

Milan today

http://milano.repubblica.it/cronaca...scontri_fra_studenti_e_poliziotti-25151495/1/

 

[chilango]

...and there's a CUB/COBAS "general strike" on the transport system now too.

 

[Idaho]

You seem rather confused.You first argued that the reason people will suffer is because 'Italy' lived beyond it's means.You've now abandoned that (without bothering to say why you were wrong to argue that this is/was the case). Now it's the movements and interests of global capital (as everyone else seems to have argued). But them saying so is wrong because they adopt a "conspiracy-personal-tabloid angle" (which you don't bother to define characterise or outline) rather than...what?

I haven't abandoned anything nor do I have much interest in an adversarial braying contest butchers. I wonder sometimes whether you have any other conversational modes other than righteous argument or confounded indignation.

 

[butchersapron]

You've totally abandoned your original contribution:

But just to look at this side of it in isolation isn't enough. Italy has spent more than it earns. If you get a mortgage whose repayments outstrip your income, you are going to suffer.

You now argue that Italy

hasn't lived beyond it's means.

To point this out is not adversarial - it's factual. It's to ask you why it is now suffering. A question to which there's been no answer from you thus far.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It shouldn't astonish me, but it still kind of does, when it is announced with such scant ceremony that unelected cabinets now run significant nations in Western Europe. Notably, Goldman Sachs are just as prominent in EU economics as they were in the build up to the biggest economic clusterfucks and frauds in history. "technocrat" is a rather polite and inoffensive sounding word. What it actually means is the same class of people that got us into the mess. This is not going to end prettily, or at least it shouldn't.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Also, I've seen at least one UKIP blogger try to make capital out of this. And easy capital it is too. Not that UKIP have any solution beyond more slavery to the markets. With regard to the "left" I saw an Italian Communist denounce the whole charade, it is clear where their hearts will lie generally but will it have an impact on the populations. General election soon in Spain could be an indication. If communists, genuine socialists or even Greens can't put the ball in the net at a time such as this it does make one wonder. Probably it would be because elections are more about expensive branding than actual ideas, but what better a time than to get active against the old ways that have so shafted us?

 

[Lo Siento.]

Also, I've seen at least one UKIP blogger try to make capital out of this. And easy capital it is too. Not that UKIP have any solution beyond more slavery to the markets. With regard to the "left" I saw an Italian Communist denounce the whole charade, it is clear where their hearts will lie generally but will it have an impact on the populations. General election soon in Spain could be an indication. If communists, genuine socialists or even Greens can't put the ball in the net at a time such as this it does make one wonder. Probably it would be because elections are more about expensive branding than actual ideas, but what better a time than to get active against the old ways that have so shafted us?

The spanish general election will be a landslide for the PP, which will indicate nothing more than the same 1/3 of the population as always (who think the country will work if only we could abandon the poor to their deserved fate) are the only sector of society who retain serious faith in the political establishment, and the other 2/3 aren't convinced by any of the other (currently plausible) options.

 

[Lo Siento.]

You've totally abandoned your original contribution:

You now argue that Italy

To point this out is not adversarial - it's factual. It's to ask you why it is now suffering. A question to which there's been no answer from youth us far.

the living beyond their means stuff should in any case be a massive indictment of what capitalism has achieved. Were most of us living extravagantly before the crash? They tell us they spent too much on social services and that wages are too high, pensions too generous for capitalism to work. If life can't even be as mediocre as it was prior to the crash without screwing up capitalism, why on earth should we consent to it?

 

[maomao]

As said elsewhere what has changed is that it is being deliberately targeted by people who will make money from a default and by people who will make money form austerity measures. They're probably pretty much the same people.

Can someone explain how they make money from a default? I can understand how they make money from pushing the interest rate up, or from 'austerity' which seems to involve a lot of privatisation, but how do they make money from non payment of a debt?

 

[extra dry]

to make big money from a default you need to be a business person, the easiest example, I think, is:
Person A = business man B= Bank (national bank/lender) C = Company (manufacturing firm)

A buys C, borrows a lot of money from B, knowing that the country ie Greece will default (how or why A suspects or in some cases know a country is heading to the skids in 6 months time is another thread really), thus the money borrowed is gone...supposedly into the factory/premises/staff etc. The money has already left the country. This was done on a moderate scale just after the Czech revolution in 1989-1993, the term for it 'tunneling', I was told about it from a bank manager, who clearly said the government picked up the bad debts from the banks, the business people borrowed millions to repair an old soviet shoe factories, buildings all sorts of stuff.

I could be mistaken thoug been a long night

 

[chilango]

 

[chilango]

 

[chilango]

 

[chilango]

 

[Idaho]

You've totally abandoned your original contribution:



You now argue that Italy



To point this out is not adversarial - it's factual. It's to ask you why it is now suffering. A question to which there's been no answer from you thus far.

Italy's means and its outgoings have changed. And a proportion of those means were built on confidence and faith. That's the way modern capitalism works. Its a series of promises based on shared belief.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...cy-goldman-sachs-conquers-europe-6264091.html

 

[Stoat Boy]

I appreciate that Nigel Farage is never going to feature as a guest speaker at a U75 soiree but I think this speech raised some interesting points with regards to what has happened in Greece and Italy....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdob6QRLRJU

 

[Zabo]

I appreciate that Nigel Farage is never going to feature as a guest speaker at a U75 soiree but I think this speech raised some interesting points with regards to what has happened in Greece and Italy....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdob6QRLRJU

Indeed it does and matches Tony Benn's criteria perfectly.

""If one meets a powerful person ask them five questions: "What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?" If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."

I conclude that the imposition of the technocrats is the perfect jail break card for the corrupt politicians of Italy and Greece - surely they didn't plan it? Once the shit has been handed down and when things return to normal (really?) they will be able to return looking like little angels ready to start the next few decades of lying, scheming, conniving and fucking over the people of their countries.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I suppose it's reliant on the failure of plural party politics, all the while being seen as somehow not beholden to any party.

It certainly is better served by the hollowing out of mainstream party ideology into three more-or-less similar versions of neo-liberalism, but tthat couldn't have happened as fast as it has without the capitulation of the politicians and the complicity of a media that doesn't make such a capitulation clear, but rather still represents our "parliamentary democracy" as an oppositional system with validity, rather than the equivalent of three bald men fighting over a comb.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Is this what lies ahead for all of us? A weird bureaucratic dictatorship of the middle-manager

I suppose I'm the only person here who thinks that this would be by far the best possible outcome.

 

[TruXta]

VP, I have no recollection of writing that at all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

'The Markets' appear to be jittery in spain's direction now... Wonder how long it will take for that government to fall -and then who's next?

It's domino theory, but domino theory that's given a less than subtle shunt by a market that knows it can benefit from creating speculation and making economic waves. The idea seems to be to have one Euro-member nation-state's economy tank after another, each helped along with rumours about downgraded credit ratings etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

VP, I have no recollection of writing that at all.

You're getting old!

 

[contadino]

It's domino theory, but domino theory that's given a less than subtle shunt by a market that knows it can benefit from creating speculation and making economic waves. The idea seems to be to have one Euro-member nation-state's economy tank after another, each helped along with rumours about downgraded credit ratings etc.

I think Spain could be a bit of a different story. The upcoming election will create a new government at the will of the people, without a history of poor performance behind it. If the markets don't like it, it'll be quite a gutsy (dumb) move for it to be replaced immediately with a government of bankers. So, the markets endure the wait and risk Spain tanking (which would bring down many foreign banks) or they steamroll in and risk real civil unrest.

The difference is that the previous Greek government was given a chance, and the Italian one had clearly proven itself to be useless over a number of years, but bringing down a new government is a recipe for trouble.

 

[TruXta]

You're getting old!

That and I drink too much.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think Spain could be a bit of a different story. The upcoming election will create a new government at the will of the people, without a history of poor performance behind it. If the markets don't like it, it'll be quite a gutsy (dumb) move for it to be replaced immediately with a government of bankers. So, the markets endure the wait and risk Spain tanking (which would bring down many foreign banks) or they steamroll in and risk real civil unrest.

The difference is that the previous Greek government was given a chance, and the Italian one had clearly proven itself to be useless over a number of years, but bringing down a new government is a recipe for trouble.

It's not about immediate moves, though. The current crop have been whispered about since '08. I don't believe that Spain would be immediately attacked, but the rumour mill started a couple of years ago for a reason, just as it did with Italy, Ireland, Portugal and Greece.

 

[coley]

I suppose I'm the only person here who thinks that this would be by far the best possible outcome.

Hopefully.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

is this essentially the IMF doing what it has perfected on third world and latin american countries?

There's a plan to extend this approach to some American cities. The plan is to implement laws that give cities a financial "stress-test". If they fail, the law would allow the governor to take control and appoint a finacial manager in place of the elected city government:

Following the lead of Michigan GOP Governor Rick Snyder, Walker is said to be preparing a plan that would allow him to force local governments to submit to a financial stress test with an eye towards permitting the governor to take over municipalities that fail to meet with Walker’s approval.

According to the reports, should a locality’s financial position come up short, the Walker legislation would empower the governor to insert a financial manager of his choosing into local government with the ability to cancel union contracts, push aside duly elected local government officials and school board members and take control of Wisconsin cities and towns whenever he sees fit to do so.

Such a law would additionally give Walker unchallenged power to end municipal services of which he disapproves, including safety net assistance to those in need.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...-planning-financial-martial-law-in-wisconsin/