Technocracy - Is this the future?
- Thread starter ItWillNeverWork
- Start date
The left (by that I mean the likes of Sinistra Ecologia Liberta) are still stuck in the same ol' rut. Slagging off what is happening, without saying either what alternative they propose. Lack of credible responses from the Left is maybe why we're in this mess.
As for why isn't it headline news....who publishes the papers, and what agreements have been made between this bunch of bankers and those publishers? Plus, I don't know anyone who reads newspapers here. The reporting is so shite, they're certainly not worth buying. Fine for a flick through whilst in a bar, but not much else.
Frankly I'm of the opinion that a government of non-politicians is our best hope. Prodi did fuck all, and Berlusconi/Tremonti did fuck all. Everyone in Rome is only interested in their own affairs, rather than what's best for Italy. Even if this new lot do a load of stuff wrong, they'll at least have done something for Italy. Any successive government will then be more inclined (maybe even compelled) to do something else for Italy, be it repealing or bolstering legislation.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Turns out I've read that article before somewhere. reasonably accurate, but over-eggs it a little imo. Casapound et al aren't doing anything terribly new. It's a continuation of old strands of fascism that never really went away. They also, I've said a few times, still project themselves very much as explicit fascists. I've not seen much sign of them making a reakthrough in support or strength either.
Worth remembering that in sections of italian society fascism is nothing to be ashamed of. I was in a small regional airport in central Italy the other day and the airport newsagents was selling Mussolini calendars. You wouldn't find Hitler calendars in a german airport would you?
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
You're in Puglia aren't you? Svendola's 'home ground'. LES are moving fairly rapidly to the right these days. There was a time when he was seen by more than just his admirers that Vendola was seen as a future opponent of Berlusconi. Remember the comment Berlusca made about his eye for the ladies was better than him being gay. That was seen as an attack on Vendola, unusual tactic if he wasn't seen as a threat i'd say.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I've yet to see SEL's response. I won't be holding my breath.
I didn't mean the papers here. I've given up reading Il Manifesto anyway!
From where I'm sitting I think its the Lega that will get the most out of this...
This Govt ain't gonna do anything for "Italy". They're doing it for a bunch of European financiers...
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Vendola was not so long ago the only figure on the Left providing anything approaching a credible face.
I'm just going on the comments that SEL post up on facebook. Just pointless crap. Criticise everything, but propose nothing.
My point was that whatever this government do, be it good or bad, will give any subsequent government something to undo. Privatise acquadotti? Next government can re-nationalise it. Facilitate hire & fire? Next government can recind it. It'll give the politicians something to do other than take back-handers and argue with each other, which is all they've been doing for as long as I can remember.
And yes, Fedayn, I'm in Puglia, and yes, Vendola used to be a rather good candidate for an opposition leader, but I wouldn't vote for him now. Up until the referendum this year, he was doing some good stuff down here for us, but it's really petered out since then. Now he just bickers with all the others.
There was an interview with a really interesting guy a few months back. Young (like early 40's) mayor of Turin or Florence maybe. Unafiliated to any of the left-wing parties. Tipped by many media talking heads and CGIL, etc.. to take the job as opposition leader, but he didn't want to be in any of the parties. That says a lot about the state of the left here.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Can you remember his name?
Idaho
blah blah blah
There's a few things there to tease out of the spaghetti pile of your approach.
I think you have a simplified view of those global institutions and financial bodies. They didn't decide consciously to lose faith in Italy as an act of malice. They aren't unified on their solutions, nor on whether they are making or losing money from the whole deal. Some elements of global capital, as you would have it, are terrified of an Italian default, and some are set to make a fortune from it.
As for the poor in Italy invariably getting the shitty end of the stick. Well yes. That's a certainty whether Italy defaults or clings on.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I didn't say that they did it out of malice, i said they did it for their own good - there's also a considerable amount of ideological and political justification being thrown around to cover these interests . (Do you ever really read my posts?) Or are you going to tell me that there's some other primary motivating factor? If so, what?
And, as ever, you miss the substantive point - you said that the current austerity (the suffering) is simply what happens when a country (without even bothering to identify competing groups within that country, levels of responsibility for taking on the debt and so on - whilst talking about simplification) lives beyond its means. No it's not. The country has lived beyond its means for many years without the current and future suffering - quite a lot of them have in fact. So something else has changed that means they're now going to suffer. I think that's because global capital has now identified austerity and suffering as being necessary to defend their interests. Do you disagree? How and where?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Indeed,we both asked this in another thread and go no reply - nothing beyond the idiotic 'italys' anyway.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Who weakened it and why?
Last week (when Silvio was defenestrated) the ECB bought only half the amount of Italian bonds than they had purchased the preceding week.
Idaho
blah blah blah
The various investment institutions and bodies that trade in debt. They lend money/invest in bonds based on a evaluation of whether they are going to make money. If they aren't sure they will get repaid on investments in bonds, then they won't buy them. This means governments have to issue bonds at higher interest rates to attract investors. At the same time lenders won't lend cheaply to countries if they fear a default and losing all their money. So they compensate by charging higher interest rates.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
So "Italy" isn't "living beyond its means" at all then.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
It's not the Mayor of Torino as he's a 60 yr old PD member. Current Mayor of Florence is Matteo Renzi a 36 year old PD, former PP, member. De Magistris is the Mayor of Naples and not a party member. He was backed by the Left/Centrre-Left'.
Matteo Renzi.
WRT Italy living beyond her means, I don't think that 'the bond market' really looks at things quite so simply. AFAIK, our debt hasn't risen much (compared to, say the US) over the last 5 or so years. We have an economy that doesn't grow and no means to inflate away our debt, so either we have austerity or we default. If we have austerity, anecdotal evidence from other countries in the same boat shows that our economy starts to shrink, and we become unable to service the debt, so we default. So now we have supposed economists running the country in an attempt to bolster the confidence of growth. The market is happy. Because it's stupid.
Italy will default, make no mistake. As will Portugal, Greece, Spain, and anyone else the bond market traders decides to target. Maybe on the other side we'll have some economists or a government who understand no-growth economies.
Idaho
blah blah blah
You both have an appropriately static view of economics.
If you had a mortgage you would know that when the interest rates go up, then your monthly bill goes up.
While the eurozone economies where growing, and interest rates were low, the European governments were under no pressure to deal with their debt burdens. Going back to the mortgage example. If you are earning good money, and have a promise of future payrises, no-one minds you taking out a big mortgage. Or even getting the odd cash advance on your credit card to cover a payment.
... but then the payrises don't come. And the interest rates on your mortgage go up. So now when you want a cash advance to cover the repayments, the bank won't touch you and you have to pay 25% at Wonga.com.
Oops, sorry. Crossed posts. Renzi.
Maybe I misunderstood him. I'm sure he was slagging off all the parties, left, right, and religious nuts. His big thing is that he reckons that all the politicians in Rome are too old, too out of touch with real life, and too self-serving. It rang true to me.
Continuing your analogy, how would you feel if your mortgage company knocked the rate on your existing mortgage up by about 200% because they thought you wouldn't get a pay rise?
Idaho
blah blah blah
The market is no only stupid, but utterly short term, ammoral and directionless. And I fear you are right about the inevitable default. It's just a question of what event will precipitate it.
Idaho
blah blah blah
I would feel sad. What have we learnt from that?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Continuing your analogy, how would you feel if your mortgage company knocked the rate on your existing mortgage up by about 200% after they decided not to give you a pay rise?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Italy's economy hasn't been growing for a long long time now.
That hasn't changed.
As said elsewhere what has changed is that it is being deliberately targeted by people who will make money from a default and by people who will make money form austerity measures. They're probably pretty much the same people.
Idaho
blah blah blah
I don't disagree with what you are saying. But I think you are putting a conspiracy-personal-tabloid angle on it. Trying to make just about a specific group of people as the villains and benefactors, and making that group homogenous and in agreement. The fact is that our entire economic system is bound up in these processes.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You seem rather confused.You first argued that the reason people will suffer is because 'Italy' lived beyond it's means.You've now abandoned that (without bothering to say why you were wrong to argue that this is/was the case). Now it's the movements and interests of global capital (as everyone else seems to have argued). But them saying so is wrong because they adopt a "conspiracy-personal-tabloid angle" (which you don't bother to define characterise or outline) rather than...what?
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