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SWP says vote Muslim Brotherhood!

This appears on the RS site - it's claimed here to be a backtrack on the 28th may declaration - well, sort of, there's a clear attempt at some political management of the fallout rather than a backtrack. The auto-translation from arabic isn't ideal but it suggests that there was a strong rejection of the original position from within the RS, that the leadership now recognises they had no right to take such a key decision without adequate internal debate or discussion - that it was an example of undemocratic practice but one forced on them by the need for a quick declaration. That the statement not to vote for Shafiq is not a call to vote for the MB, because the MB is as shit as can be. The it goes onto say that the MB should be voted for on the basis of their 'wobbling opportunism' (they're not wobbling, fatal misreading - RS is wobbling though - ba).
 
And so



becomes (once again)

Is the latter a real quote? If so, source . . . Libye elections coming up. I can't wait for a left-national-unity party to win.

Remember, Musr is choosing its heart and soul. An anti-election campaign can't succeed without a national body behind it, and there is no such party.
 
Why do you think the MB are anti-imperialist, or something?

I don't know how you got that, but no I don't think they are anti-imperialist except in rhetoric and even
then only occasionally.

As for your imminent critique, it sounds clever but I don't see it having much traction politically. If either candidate wins with a sizable vote then they have the democratic mandate to carry out their program, imminent critique or no imminent critique.
 
what does "anti-imperialist" mean in this context? It very clearly meant anti-American in Iran, is that what's meant here- it seems doubtful to me that the supporters of the MB are pro-American (ideologically or economically)? Or are there other imperial powers at work whose interests they would support?
 
The biggest issues Egypt faces is not managing to get rid of the military junta who are the power behind the throne... until they are gone anything else is window dressing... and they claim not to want to go until there's a new govt in place... quelle suprise...
 
Seems the MB is by far the best choice for the revolution to be successful. I don't get the impression they are anywhere near as rabid as the Islamists in Iran's revolution. Mubarak's buddy in power would likely simply mean a return to military dictatorship.
 
what does "anti-imperialist" mean in this context? It very clearly meant anti-American in Iran, is that what's meant here- it seems doubtful to me that the supporters of the MB are pro-American (ideologically or economically)? Or are there other imperial powers at work whose interests they would support?

Putting aside various posturing, the MB are close to Qatar (and the Salafis are close to the Saudis) who are key allies of the US in the region. Furthermore they don't challenge the economic/military order in Egypt which is funded by the US. (Not that I was intending to talk about US imperialism, just responding to Ibn.)
 
I'm actually pretty impressed that the RS published that article at all. They're willing to do a bit of self criticism in public even if they are wobbling.
 
Seems the MB is by far the best choice for the revolution to be successful. I don't get the impression they are anywhere near as rabid as the Islamists in Iran's revolution. Mubarak's buddy in power would likely simply mean a return to military dictatorship.

So the advice for revolutionaries is to vote for semi rabid Islamists is it? What would the advice be if they were full on reactionaries. Jesus.
 
The MB have been in close talks with the US since jan last year. The US isn't stupid and it didn't take much strategical sense to realise that this was a horse they needed to be involved with (again). In turn the MB have publicly gone out of their way to reassure the US that whatever power they gain they won't be using it to overturn the historic Egypt/US ruling class arrangements.
 
What is the MB's position on women's rights, gay rights, or Copt rights? Or secular opposition, for that matter. From what I can tell, they do seem to be being deliberately vague about what they would actually do in power, beyond their basic goal, which is to establish an Islamic state. I don't see how it's possible to support a group that wants to establish an Islamic state. An MB victory may bring about a 'successful' revolution in the sense that the old order would be decisively replaced, but replaced by what?

As for Shafiq, I wouldn't necessarily see a victory for him as a return to the old order. Ex-Franco ministers formed the first post-Franco government in Spain, but they knew that something fundamental had changed there. And a victory to Shafiq, particularly a narrow one, would not necessarily signal a return to business as usual, not if Shafiq has any sense.

That's not to say that I think people should vote for Shafiq. I don't see how anyone could vote for either of them. It's not just a question of holding your nose for Chirac, for instance - Chirac at least stood for the secular constitution of France, if nothing else. But I don't see any basic underlying thing that could form the basis for a vote for either of these.
 
On US Muslim Brotherhood relations, here is a (quite old now) article by Joseph Massad which is quite interesting.

The Muslim Brotherhood, which joined the revolutionary demonstrations late in the game and after much hesitation, may be looking for a wider role, now that the US administration has decided to speak to it openly (which has impelled it to refuse to join the July 8 sit-in). The Muslim Brothers may look like strange bedfellows with the SCAF and the business class, but if you follow the money back to Saudi Arabia and the United States, they are not at all. Indeed, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has threatened to have President Obama veto the new conservative Republican resolution to stop US aid to Egypt if the Islamists are elected, as it would interfere with her foreign policy strategy in the country.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/07/201172885752615193.html
 
Garfield hits the nail on the head for me, and one of the ways that their power could be greatly diminished is if (somehow) the U.S.could be bought to realise that the 6bn they currently give in aid was not worth their while. Unfortunately it very much is worth their while at the moment but circumstances could change.

Shafiq is a nightmare the MB less so (imo).

Rock and a hard place.
 
The biggest issues Egypt faces is not managing to get rid of the military junta who are the power behind the throne... until they are gone anything else is window dressing... and they claim not to want to go until there's a new govt in place... quelle suprise...
To be replaced by anything at all? Should a Copt vote for the MB? If not, then why would a secularist?
 
Heh, on the one hand Shafiq has been asked to testify in the case of 'The battle of the Camels' but in another tweet:

In 'Camel Battle' trial tdy, victims' lawyer demands including Ahmed #Shafik as defendant in the case #Egypt
 
Seems the MB is by far the best choice for the revolution to be successful. I don't get the impression they are anywhere near as rabid as the Islamists in Iran's revolution. Mubarak's buddy in power would likely simply mean a return to military dictatorship.

Problem being that Iran was originally seen as controllable/manipulable by the west, swiftly followed by Khomeini's "year zero" on the back of popular acclaim. The Iran example may cause worry in some quarters. The sort of quarters that won't tolerate a possible Islamist state next door to their favourite client-state.
 
I've changed my mind.

The argument for a vote for Mursi rests on the assumption that the election of Shafiq and the inevitable counter revolutionary repression that will follow will be substantially different to the aftermath of a Mursi win. There is no reason to assume this. The MB have made it plain in words and actions that they are willing to accomodate the interests of the Egyptian military. The question then is what those interests are and what the demands of the Egyptian deep state will be on any civilian government that they tolerate.

The principle demand of the Egyptian military is order, defined as the elimination of the popular movement especially in the streets and in the factories and workplaces. This is Shafiqs explicit promise, to crush the revolution by force. That means arrests, breaking up of opposition organisations, crushing of strikes, arrests and executions of strike leaders etc. A victory for Shafiq then would be a disaster. However, is there any reason to assume that a MB regime would behave any differently in practice, especially when such repression is demanded of it by the military and by its paymasters the US. I have to answer no. Therefore there really is no difference between the two choices. The military and the deep state win whichever option is chosen.

From the lefts point of view then, repression will be the probably outcome of EITHER result. The task then for the left is not to attempt to avoid the inevitable by choosing one of the instruments of their own repression but to keep their ideological and political hands clean by refusing to associate themselves with either option and to organise resistance from outside the institutions of the state. This, it seems to me is the best option for the left. To be able to point to the inevitable betrayals of the MB and to retain their independance and hopefully to build a real opposition unstained by association. There was a very low turnout for this election, which indicates a substantial section of the population sees no real choices for them. That means there is a space for organising against whichever regime emerges from these elections and that is best done by an organisation unsullied by association with the victor. Something that would be lost if they call for a vote for Mursi. A boycott then and organisation away from the institutions of the state is the only viable option.
 
The Muslim Brotherhood in power will indeed lead to repression, including a crackdown on the secular left, but only if they are in a strong position to be able to do so. The Socialist Worker article makes the point that Mursi is not in such a position now, with splits, defections and pressure from within the Muslim Brotherhood to deliver further change. An 'unstable Brotherhood' in parliament Marfleet concludes will 'put Mursi to the test'. With US backing, Mursi's position will I expect change to become a stronger one? Then what? However, Socialist Worker does make clear, 'to continue the struggles over jobs, wages, union rights and for radical political change.' This is as one would expect, the elections are secondary to this.
 
Does it follow that it's of no consequence whatsoever who wins the election? What would be more damaging to the revolution (genuine question) immediate repressions or illusions in the MB?
 
Does it follow that it's of no consequence whatsoever who wins the election? What would be more damaging to the revolution (genuine question) immediate repressions or illusions in the MB?

No to the first point. Difficult to answer the second one. It's not about any "illusions" in the MB. It's whether they can deliver the change expected.
 
Mursi's pretty much like Erdogan. Not good, but the best that can be hoped for. There's no doubt about the MB's genuine mass popularity, nor is there any doubt that life will improve for the masses under an MB government. Such a government would also take a more rational line on Israel. I'm with the SWP on this one.
 
To be replaced by anything at all? Should a Copt vote for the MB? If not, then why would a secularist?
You say this like the puppets in front of the tanks make a blind bit of difference to the amassed, endemic corruption and violent repression. It won't.

If Egypt doesn't get the govt it wants then the protests, the oppression and the bloodshed will not stop it'll get immeasurably worse.

The junta won't go until there's a written consitution the consitution won't be written until after the elections and only with the consent of the junta...

These elections are a step forward, but hollow becuase the stark choice is oppression by the encumbent or oppression by the religious...

Some choice. This is why most Egyptians are still fed up. Mubarak should have been a watershed moment instead it's been stage managed and just a blip for the junta...
 
Repression and counter revolution, when it comes, will not come at the whim of the civilian government. It will come, as it has for the past year, from the military regime and the deep state which sits behind the throne. This is the limits of the revolution, that it never challenged the economic and political power of the Egyptian military.

While this is the reality, civilian governance will always be second player to the military and the military hold real power. Therefore, in this context, we have to ask ourselves what civilian government really means in Egypt anyway.There are no real separation of powers in Egypt, and there is no reason to believe these elections have created a civilian institutions with any real power in relation to the deep state
We have seen several times in the past year, attempts at repression of the streets. Sometimes quite brutally. Thousands have been imprisoned, Thousands remain imprisoned. Hundreds have been killed, women sexually assaulted, revolutionaries beaten and tortured. The limits to this repression has not been civilian government. There hasn't been any of course. The limits, as is always the case in revolutionary situations has been the balance of forces and the capacity for the opposition to resist the military's attempts to impose its will.

My point is that civilian governance isn't really the issue here is it? If the real power is the military and if the military decide to break the opposition and the democratic movement once and for all then it will do so based on an assessment of its capacity to do so in the face of resistance. Shafiq would be a willing attack dog for the counter revolution, the MB will quietly acquiesce but the result will be the same and it will be the military regime that cracks the heads and shoots the bullets.

Which is why I have had to rethink my position here. If the decision to crush the opposition is a military one, then the form of civilian governance is really irrelevent to that decision and, seeing that the MB really do stink, what reason then is there for the opposition to support it? I mean, there never were positive reasons to vote for the MB, only the negative one of keeping Shafiq out. But if the question of civilian rule is of secondary importance to the fact that the military are in power, why play along?

Isn't it better for the secular left to accept this reality. Stand aside from it and organise to resist it rather than supporting one side and risking losing their own credibility?
 
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