Suarez gets 8 match ban

[Fedayn]

Eh? That's where he admits to posting a link from the Sun, not reading the paper. And don't try and wriggle out of it by saying they are the same thing.

Do you think he posted a link without reading it? Just posted it on the off chance it might say something he agreed with or thought worth others reading? He clearly thought the article worth reading and it's contents had a veracity he was happy with. However you slice it it's pretty shoddy. Boycott the Sun but hang on let me post a link to their website so others can read it.... And, sleaterkinney even apologised for it, he obviously sorta regrets posting it.

 

[Fedayn]

They said that all along, didn't they?

I'm surprised that Liverpool fans on here are still arguing in Suarez' favour.

Why are you surprised?

 

[Fedayn]

In the report, Suarez claimed: "I would refer to Glen Johnson as 'negro' in the same way that I might refer to Dirk Kuyt as 'Blondie' - because he has blond hair, or Andy Carroll as 'Grandote' - 'Big Man' - because he is very tall.

Yes, that would have helped, referring to someone's skin colour/race is just like referring to their hair colour and height..... So we can add moron to the list as well.

 

[Deareg]

I still can't get my head around people arguing that he is not a racist!

 

[Fedayn]

I still can't get my head around people arguing that he is not a racist!

The point is the FA charge wasn't that he was or wasn't a racist but whether he used racist language/racially abused Evra. The evidence certainly infers he's not believable and he's a tad inconsistent. That might indicate a few things.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I still can't get my head around people arguing that he is not a racist!

It's interesting that many of the people arguing that he is a racist, despite the views of Evra himself and the FA report, are themselves reformed racists. Anyway, it's a New Year, time to forgive and forget and move on. I think Suarez should drop his appeal, accept his punishment, learn his lesson and learn to speak English, too.

 

[Deareg]

It's interesting that many of the people arguing that he is a racist, despite the views of Evra himself and the FA report, are themselves reformed racists. Anyway, it's a New Year, time to forgive and forget and move on. I think Suarez should drop his appeal, accept his punishment, learn his lesson and learn to speak English, too.

Who are the reformed racists?

 

[ChrisFilter]

Why are you surprised?

Because I expected different from the Liverpool fans on here.

 

[Fedayn]

Because I expected different from the Liverpool fans on here.

Illusions shattered eh?!

 

[ChrisFilter]

Nothing so dramatic. I just thought people might be a little more objective on here, in comparison with your average football fan.

 

[Deareg]

The point is the FA charge wasn't that he was or wasn't a racist but whether he used racist language/racially abused Evra. The evidence certainly infers he's not believable and he's a tad inconsistent. That might indicate a few things.

Maybe I am just old fashioned fed, but to me if you use racist language then you are a racist.

 

[ChrisFilter]

I think it certainly suggests racist tendancies.

 

[Fedayn]

Maybe I am just old fashioned fed, but to me if you use racist language then you are a racist.

I think that's to simplistic and individualistic. I'm not defending the use, but I think it's too mechanistic to say that if you say this or that word you are by definition a racist.

 

[ChrisFilter]

Indeed. It can be said to get a reaction. Seems to be the finding in Suarez' case.

 

[Fedayn]

Indeed. It can be said to get a reaction. Seems to be the finding in Suarez' case.

Very possibly yes, though the reaction he got probably wasn't the one he was hoping for.

 

[Deareg]

I think that's to simplistic and individualistic. I'm not defending the use, but I think it's too mechanistic to say that if you say this or that word you are by definition a racist.

If it was a one off remark in the heat of the moment you might have a valid point, but this was repeated abuse and is actually worse than I had believed, "I don't talk to blacks" who the fuck uses that in the heat of an argument?

 

[Fedayn]

If it was a one off remark in the heat of the moment you might have a valid point, but this was repeated abuse and is actually worse than I had believed, "I don't talk to blacks" who the fuck uses that in the heat of an argument?

Isn't that comment what Evra claimed he said? If that bit is true then it would contradict Evra's own claim Suarez isn't a racist. It would certainly make his remarks more overtly racist i'd agree.

 

[Deareg]

Isn't that comment what Evra claimed he said? If that bit is true then it would contradict Evra's own claim Suarez isn't a racist. It would certainly make his remarks more overtly racist i'd agree.

I can't speak for Evra, or Glen Johnson, but the FA seem to have accepted that he did use these words, I am making my own mind up based on what info I can get from the case and drawing on my own life experience.

 

[Fedayn]

I can't speak for Evra, or Glen Johnson, but the FA seem to have accepted that he did use these words, I am making my own mind up based on what info I can get from the case and drawing on my own life experience.

If the remark re not talking to blacks is true then it makes any 'defence' of Suarez a defence of his racism imho.

 

[Wilf]

In a sense, the point you are discussing now (whether he is a racist or whether he used insulting/racist language to wind Evra up) is just about the only one left after the report. Whatever your take on this, Suarez was guilty [of using insulting words etc] and was not a 'credible witness'. Equally, the idea that the 'Uraguayan cultural defence' could be used in the heart of an argument has been rejected. Evra on the other hand was seen as a 'credible witness'.

Having had a chance to look at the report or at least summaries, be interesting to see what Liverpool fans have to say. In particular Sleater, you've said you wouldn't make a judgement till you see the actual report. Well?

 

[The39thStep]

I think that's to simplistic and individualistic. I'm not defending the use, but I think it's too mechanistic to say that if you say this or that word you are by definition a racist.

Being racist yes, but I don't hold the arguement that by making a remark, an assumption or use of language that it makes anyone a racist or sexist per se. If this was the case then a lot of us would be damned for eternity as being sexist or racist.

What i find quite puzzling generally from people who I speak to ( and that includes Man Utd supporters) is the lack of overhelming sympathy for Evra as victim.

 

[Wilf]

What i find quite puzzling generally from people who I speak to ( and that includes Man Utd supporters) is the lack of overhelming sympathy for Evra as victim.

Interesting point. I imagine that's partly because he and United (unlike Liverpool) have kept quiet throughout the process - as they were supposed to do. The whole thing has focussed on Suarez. Perhaps there's also the fact that Evra, away from this incident, comes across as cocky and willing to make comments about his oppoents in interviews. I personally like him and his barbed comments but he's not everyones cup of tea. However all of that is irrelevant, he was the victim of what might at best be described as sustained racial taunts (I'd just go with racism full stop). This has certainly affected his form. Perhaps now the hearing (appeal?) is over, he'll do interviews and it will rightly shift onto how he feels about it all.

 

[TruXta]

I think Suarez should drop his appeal, accept his punishment, learn his lesson and learn to speak English, too.

This. Been increasingly less sure of Suarez' and the club's stance. Accept the verdict, move on. The club should take a look at its PR department, they didn't handle this at all well.

 

[London_Calling]

The more I read of the judgment, the more unreliable Suarez appeared as a witness:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jan/01/liverpool-appeal-luis-suarez

Liverpool FC have already embarrassed themselves, it might be an idea to just shut up, accept the judgment and revise the information/assistance they give to players arriving in this country for the first time.

 

[Wilf]

Agreed, they've fucked up royally over this. Best they can do now is craft some kind of statement saying loyalty to their player was important, but that they accept the report/won't appeal.... still committed to Kick it Out principles and the like. Will sound a bit hollow after the shirts thing and what they said about Evra, but they need to start somewhere. Suarez too needs to think about some kind of 'I never intended to racially abuse him, but I do apologise and accept the report' statement. Even for me, a United fan, I wouldn't want LIverpool saddled with this long term, but it's up to them now.

 

[sleaterkinney]

In a sense, the point you are discussing now (whether he is a racist or whether he used insulting/racist language to wind Evra up) is just about the only one left after the report. Whatever your take on this, Suarez was guilty [of using insulting words etc] and was not a 'credible witness'. Equally, the idea that the 'Uraguayan cultural defence' could be used in the heart of an argument has been rejected. Evra on the other hand was seen as a 'credible witness'.

Having had a chance to look at the report or at least summaries, be interesting to see what Liverpool fans have to say. In particular Sleater, you've said you wouldn't make a judgement till you see the actual report. Well?

I think it's a disgrace, just because Suarez was inconsistent they've taken Evra's story as the truth - I don't see how they can do that.

Also, I'm not comfortable with them coming to a verdict - "on the balance of probabilites" - it means they don't have a enough evidence for "reasonable doubt" - and they don't have any evidence bar Evra's word against Suarez's and this is a serious matter. I hope we appeal though I can see us just wanting it to go away.

 

[Deareg]

I think it's a disgrace, just because Suarez was inconsistent they've taken Evra's story as the truth - I don't see how they can do that.

Also, I'm not comfortable with them coming to a verdict - "on the balance of probabilites" - it means they don't have a enough evidence for "reasonable doubt" - and they don't have any evidence bar Evra's word against Suarez's and this is a serious matter. I hope we appeal though I can see us just wanting it to go away.

It has been quoted the Kuyt said he heard Suarez saying that he kicked Evra "because he was black", I thought that you intended to read the report, you obviously haven't fucking bothered.

 

[London_Calling]

Also, I'm not comfortable with them coming to a verdict - "on the balance of probabilites" - it means they don't have a enough evidence for "reasonable doubt" - and they don't have any evidence bar Evra's word against Suarez's and this is a serious matter. I hope we appeal though I can see us just wanting it to go away.

It really, really doesn't. 'The balance of probability' is the civil law standard. You're saying there was a choice between the criminal and civil and there was no such choice. This was not a criminal court. The burden of proof is the correct burden.

Also, they did not take Evra's word, Suarez agreed the substance of the allegation but claimed a different intention, a non-racist intention.

Just give it up and have some respect. The world is losing respect for Liverpool FC as it is.

 

[Deareg]

A small sample of the report.

However, we apply the standards that we consider appropriate to games played
in England under the FA Rules. Whether the words or behaviour are abusive or
insulting is an objective matter; it does not depend on whether the alleged
offender intended his words to be abusive or insulting

(3) We received expert evidence as to the use of the word "negro" in Uruguay and
other areas of Latin America. It is often used as a noun to address people,
whether family, friends or passers-by, and is widely seen as inoffensive.
However, its use can also be offensive. It depends on the context. It is inoffensive
when its use implies a sense of rapport or the attempt to create such rapport.
However, if it were used, for example, with a sneer, then it might carry negative
connotations. The Spanish language experts told us that if Mr Suarez said the
things that Mr Evra alleged, they would be considered racially offensive in
Uruguay and other regions of Latin America

(4) Mr Evra was a credible witness. He gave his evidence in a calm, composed and
clear way. It was, for the most part, consistent, although both he and Mr Suarez
were understandably unable to remember every detail of the exchanges between
them (paragraphs 229 to 234 above).
(5) Mr Suarez's evidence was unreliable in relation to matters of critical importance.
It was, in part, inconsistent with the contemporaneous evidence, especially the
video footage. For example, Mr Suarez said that he pinched Mr Evra's skin in an
attempt to defuse the situation. He also said that his use of the word "negro" to
address Mr Evra was conciliatory and friendly. We rejected that evidence. To 113
describe his own behaviour in that way was unsustainable and simply incredible
given that the players were engaged in an acrimonious argument. That this was
put forward by Mr Suarez was surprising and seriously undermined the
reliability of his evidence on other matters (paragraphs 235 to 267 above). There
were also inconsistencies between his accounts given at different times as to
what happened

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have to say after Reading that that I see absolutely no grounds for an appeal at all. They should accept the judgement and accept it quickly IMO