Stephen Lawrence murder trial begins at Old Bailey

[Proper Tidy]

its to do with the seige mentality so beloved of fascist websites/organisations. they can inflate the victom balloons!

It's not just them though is it, it's also 'lefts' trying to demonstrate some sort of narrative between the two in their slightly deranged pursuit of justice against a troubled woman who mouthed off on a tram (but didn't kill anybody).

But anyway.

 

[Spymaster]

west and lawrence top 2 topics on both VNN and stormfront...

I can't find the thread on stormfront. Which forum's it in?

 

[malatesta32]

stormfront britain then 'Dobson & Norris' thread - if you must! im starting to look like a nazi pimp ere!

 

[The39thStep]

Am I the only one that has problems with condeming whole geoghracical areas as

Absolutely. Eltham's a properly nasty shit hole which is why I was after Stoat Boy to explain this:

Most folk who've spent any time in the area, particularly if they're black, will have no problem whatsoever with vilifying this particular section of society.

It's a nasty, scary place.

Comments reminds me of some interesting research that looked at racism in south east London:

It was the last film, Routes of Racism, which provided the most direct spring­board for the debate. Set in Greenwich in South East London, Roger Hewitt’s film, based on his study of the same name, explored the effects of anti-racist policies on people living in a borough, which has seen three racist murders in recent years. Young white working class people, and local youth workers, questioned the traditional, liberal approach to anti-racism. Many interviewed for the film, argued that anti-racism promoted double standards. It was argued that this clumsy application of anti-racist practice created a perception among some, that Black and Asian people are favoured over Whites. The film highlighted how, in this context, young people increasingly expressed their anger and frustration through racism and racist
attacks. The second half of this thought provoking film gave a voice to the victims of race attacks who talked movingly about their experience, fear and anger at being terrorised by local race attackers.

 

[Streathamite]

meaning most of the pubs round there,
weird oasis of hate it was when i lived and worked around there
and they seem proud of their saaarf lundon/kent border asshole attitude

I lived in LB greenwich whilst studying at Thames Poly (as it then was)in t'80s, and I think you are absolutely spot on here. I'd never before come across such violently-expressed racial hatred as when I first went into an Eltham pub - truly shocking

 

[ViolentPanda]

The problem is that the South London rumour mill has been alive with all sorts of rumours. Throw in a jury selection process that leaves a lot to be desired (nobody living in Eltham or the surrounding boroughs was allowed to be selected) and there will be a local sense of injustice, that somehow the whole case was rigged against them from the beginning and people living in the area have been vilified ever since the murder, rather un-justly I feel.

One thing I've repeatedly noticed in that part od south London is how conspicuously people would be publicly supportive of Lawrence's alleged killers.
I'd wager that at least part of any "local sense of injustice" will be similarly conspicuous - i.e. to avoid a kicking or a lamping.

I have no doubts that these boys were guilty (although I have my doubts about how the second trial was bought around) but the whole manner of it has been diversive on many levels and there will be a perception amongsts sections of the white working class community that essentially the system will go to all sorts of lengths to secure a conviction if a racial attack is carried out by whites against non-whites but not the other way. Now you can argue against this but that does not alter what people will feel.

Logic is irrelevant to people making their decisions from emotional viewpoints. If you believe you're part of a persecuted class, then all else will follow from that belief.

Personally I think they were the sort of arseholes who just got a kick out of hurting anybody who was different to them be in skin colour, hair style or even football team but that the vilification of an entire section of the areas population that occured was totally out of order.

Still the Establishment got the result it wanted along with a change in the law that could back fire in years to come against people for whom a lot of you probably have more sympathy.

I don't see that an "entire section of the area's population" was vilified. It's beeen perfectly clear to anyone living in or near, or knowing someone living in or near Eltham any time in the last 40 years that it's had more than a little racial tension going on. Most places have got past that, but Eltham is still all this time on, the place where you have to worry about your skin colour, or even about the political views you express. Eltham may not be a haven for racists, but for whatever reasons, some members have continued to tolerate what has become intolerable elsewhere.

 

[ddraig]

e2a to 39th step
have u got a link to go with that?
i agree with Spy, i felt the tension and danger being there and travelling through and i am white
i also worked with people from the area and even when i moved away had to go back for work sometimes and it didn't seem to have changed.
stoat boy is an apologist and what is your answer to what you have quoted above? racism=racism=racism
and guilt=guilt
also bang on VP and Streathamite

 

[Stoat Boy]

I lived in LB greenwich whilst studying at Thames Poly (as it then was)in t'80s, and I think you are absolutely spot on here. I'd never before come across such violently-expressed racial hatred as when I first went into an Eltham pub - truly shocking

So well over 20 years ago then ? South East London, like most other places in the country was no doubt a lot more racist. But times have moved on enormously and to just write off an entire area based on this crime is just beyond belief but not surprising given the hysteria that is exhibited by many on the left when it comes to anything to do with racism.

 

[Voley]

I lived in LB greenwich whilst studying at Thames Poly (as it then was)in t'80s, and I think you are absolutely spot on here. I'd never before come across such violently-expressed racial hatred as when I first went into an Eltham pub - truly shocking

I was a student there when Lawrence was killed. The Abbey Arms just down the road from where I lived was a fucking shithole like you describe above. I wasn't surprised to see it get a mention in the Beating The Fascists book.

I'm really glad these two have been sent down today. It's shameful that its taken 18 years.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Are the responses down to hardened racist attitudes though? Seems more likely that it's a community siege mentality. In which case surely just dismissing the whole place as a vile shitpit of bigots will just entrench attitudes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which sections?

I've no doubt Stoatie's inplication is that the entire white working class community of Eltham was vilified, which is pretty much far from the case. I'm totally open about my belief that parts of the white working class community have tolerated overt racism beyond what's acceptable in most other communities, but that hardly makes every fucker who lives there a racist (and therefore worthy of vilification).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are the responses down to hardened racist attitudes though? Seems more likely that it's a community siege mentality. In which case surely just dismissing the whole place as a vile shitpit of bigots will just entrench attitudes.

The fairly static demography of the place probably hasn't helped.

 

[Red Storm]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16400148

BBC footage first broadcast in 1993.

A BBC Newsnight report broadcast two weeks after the murder of Stephen Lawrence showed the level of anger among the black community in Eltham, south-east London following the murder.


The BBC's Mark Easton spoke to Stephen's parents Doreen and Neville and to some of the police officers involved in the murder investigation.

 

[ddraig]

So well over 20 years ago then ? South East London, like most other places in the country was no doubt a lot more racist. But times have moved on enormously and to just write off an entire area based on this crime is just beyond belief but not surprising given the hysteria that is exhibited by many on the left when it comes to anything to do with racism.

a young man was fucking murdered, this is not hysteria you apologist cunt
oh and look, you've moved the goalposts already, no one has written off the whole area
seriously, you might want to join the threads on stormfront instead if that is your logic

 

[ViolentPanda]

west and lawrence top 2 topics on both VNN and stormfront. it is they who equate them as part of some daft conspiracy.

"you can't even be rude to coons or murder niggers in yer own country anymore!! What's the world coming to!".

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Two going to prison for the racist murder of a black man, a prison likely to have a disproportionate number of young black men. Looks like they'll spend their days on the fraggle wing...

 

[ddraig]

Are the responses down to hardened racist attitudes though? Seems more likely that it's a community siege mentality. In which case surely just dismissing the whole place as a vile shitpit of bigots will just entrench attitudes.

wtf are you on about? under siege from who and when?
there were hardened racist attitudes and yes there are racists everywhere

the difference was (and for quite a while) that it was openly expressed with a knowing grin and sparkle in their eye.
it being south london there were many different nationalities and cultures there but in and around eltham they didn't like it and vocalised it loudly and often, in pubs, on buses, on the street and in work.

i asked one who came out with something once that if they or people they knew who felt like that thought they were fighting a war then couldn't they see by looking around them that they'd lost already
and they really didn't get it

 

[Stoat Boy]

a young man was fucking murdered, this is not hysteria you apologist cunt
oh and look, you've moved the goalposts already, no one has written off the whole area
seriously, you might want to join the threads on stormfront instead if that is your logic

Yep. A young man was murdered. As happened on Oxford Street on Boxing day. And as happens on far to many occassions through out the year. Do we see memorials to those young men ? Did we see charities set up in their name ? No. Not at all. Still they aint classed as 'racist' are they ? I dont see many lefties wetting thier collective knickers over those murders.

What happened to Stephen Laurence was fucking horrible. And it was shocking that the OB took so long to get a conviction. But young men murder other young men on far to frequent a basis and in particular young black men killing young black men. But they aint so much 'fun' to campaign about is it ?

 

[ddraig]

Yep. A young man was murdered. As happened on Oxford Street on Boxing day. And as happens on far to many occassions through out the year. Do we see memorials to those young men ? Did we see charities set up in their name ? No. Not at all. Still they aint classed as 'racist' are they ? I dont see many lefties wetting thier collective knickers over those murders.

What happened to Stephen Laurence was fucking horrible. And it was shocking that the OB took so long to get a conviction. But young men murder other young men on far to frequent a basis and in particular young black men killing young black men. But they aint so much 'fun' to campaign about is it ?

so that makes it all ok then
just another murder
i guess you think it is a shame that it wasn't another black boy wot done it and it was never in the the news?
you make me sick

 

[Stoat Boy]

so that makes it all ok then
just another murder
i guess you think it is a shame that it wasn't another black boy wot done it and it was never in the the news?
you make me sick

Tedious. Really tedious. And just beneath contempt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So well over 20 years ago then ? South East London, like most other places in the country was no doubt a lot more racist. But times have moved on enormously and to just write off an entire area based on this crime is just beyond belief but not surprising given the hysteria that is exhibited by many on the left when it comes to anything to do with racism.

Eltham's post-war demography has changed a lot more slowly than other parts of south-east London, partly because of the nature of the housing, and partly because the post-war reputation of Eltham has meant that it hasn't seen quite the same degree of "gentrification" as other s/e London neighbourhoods. This has probably militated toward attitudes being somewhat "backward" (if you've no impetus to change attitudes, then why would you?) by the standards of somewhere like Lewisham. No-one, however, has written Eltham off. That's just a fantasy you've concocted in order to make your specious point.

Want to know why some people get exercised by racism? How about watching your mate get held down and his elbow stamped on for the sin of being a "Paki" (he's Mauritian)? What about seeing another triumvirate of mates get slapped around at least once a week for several years for the sin of being "jungle bunnies"? How about getting punched repeatedly in the face for "hanging about with nignogs"?
Been there, experienced that.
That was coppers doing the stamping, slapping and punching, by the way. If I catalogued non-police racism I've encountered (usually not in the areas I've lived in), I'd probably use up the boards' entire bandwidth, and I'm only a white bloke who's experienced this, not one of the people who've borne the brunt of racism. There's no excuse for it. No-Fucking-Excuse-Whatsoever.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Tedious. Really tedious. And just beneath contempt.

Let's be honest - you've got precisely the reaction you were hoping for. If tedium's what you're after I'd suggest a look in the mirror.

 

[ddraig]

Tedious. Really tedious. And just beneath contempt.

yes you are
and an apologist, for shame

 

[ViolentPanda]

Two going to prison for the racist murder of a black man, a prison likely to have a disproportionate number of young black men. Looks like they'll spend their days on the fraggle wing...

Only if they go potty.
Otherwise, they'll be in with the nonces, perverts and policemen who're on Rule 43. That's good in a way, because nonces, perverts and coppers should occasionally have someone they can look down on.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tedious. Really tedious. And just beneath contempt.

Your own "contribution" (much akin to the contribution a diarrheic dog leaves) was an attack on a group of people for attacking a group of people.
The problem being that it was a fantasy, and no such thing had actually happened.

You really shouldn't use phrases like "beneath contempt" when they're more aptly deployed at you than by you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yes you are
and an apologist, for shame

He doesn't know what the word means (shame, that is).

 

[William of Walworth]

And the teef. Don't forget the teef he apparently lost.

Edit: Let's hope that the odious Rod Liddle now receives the measure of public opprobrium which is his due. The cunt.

Can what he wrote be publicly reported/discussed (or linked to) now?

Or is that sub judice in terms of Liddle's own possible prosecution?

I'm a tad underinformed here ... sorry.

(PS Just to be clear, I've long thought RL to be a scumbag myself).

 

[Spymaster]

Can what he wrote be publicly reported/discussed (or linked to) now?

If not could you PM me please?

Haven't heard about this.

 

[Proper Tidy]

wtf are you on about? under siege from who and when?
there were hardened racist attitudes and yes there are racists everywhere

the difference was (and for quite a while) that it was openly expressed with a knowing grin and sparkle in their eye.
it being south london there were many different nationalities and cultures there but in and around eltham they didn't like it and vocalised it loudly and often, in pubs, on buses, on the street and in work.

i asked one who came out with something once that if they or people they knew who felt like that thought they were fighting a war then couldn't they see by looking around them that they'd lost already
and they really didn't get it

I don't know Eltham at all. I could be entirely wrong. Maybe it is something in the water round there. I do know we had riots that were attributed to race here, and that it became very fashionable to dismiss the whole estate, or even the whole town, as some white working class shithole where anybody looking a bit different wasn't welcome. Which, inevitably, caused attitudes to harden amongst some.

I'd suggest the vilification QP/Wrexham received in the wake of the riots was nothing compared to Eltham in the wake of Lawrence's murder. I'd suggest negative media reports condemning a whole community and everybody who lives there as backwards bigots often has the effect of creating a siege mentality in which frequently the negative traits attributed to them are embraced, at least by some.

But I don't know. It just seems a bit daft to dismiss the whole place as seemingly populated only by irredeemable racists.

 

[Fedayn]

Yep. A young man was murdered. As happened on Oxford Street on Boxing day. And as happens on far to many occassions through out the year. Do we see memorials to those young men ? Did we see charities set up in their name ? No. Not at all. Still they aint classed as 'racist' are they ? I dont see many lefties wetting thier collective knickers over those murders.

What happened to Stephen Laurence was fucking horrible. And it was shocking that the OB took so long to get a conviction. But young men murder other young men on far to frequent a basis and in particular young black men killing young black men. But they aint so much 'fun' to campaign about is it ?

Do you not think-though I sometimes wonder if you do-that the utterly rotten nature of the original police 'investigation, the police assumption that Lawrence and DuWayne Brooks were not victims, that evidence was lost, the links between the police and Norris dad, in short the complete failure of the police to investigate this case and that the investigation was "marred by a combination of professional incompetence, institutional racism and a failure of leadership by senior officers" makes it a little different from the far too many other murders in this country or are they ALL the same?