Split within the IWW?

[cesare]

I've never argued that it was impossible to introduce a new union into an already-unionised workplace. But it's often difficult, and can be counter-productive if unions start getting bogged down in a turf war with each other. I don't think, in general, that there is a syndicalist short-circuit to the hard slog of fighting to democratise existing unions.

What is the point of talking in the abstract about individual freedoms rather than looking at the concrete relations between different unions?

Individual freedom is never abstract, it is utterly real for each and every person. The starting point should be what the people working need in order to minimise the harsh effects of their labour being exploited. It should not be about what the unions need - their needs should reflect that of their members.

It's all about grass roots. If you can't grasp that you'll never be able to understand why union membership continues to fall, why people become disillusioned with unions and look for other solutions including dealing directly with management where at least they are clear on their own compromises, why support for the behemoth affiliated unions has declined as they have become dragged further right with Labour, and why direct action workplace organising is becoming more and more appealing for people who just don't think it's fair that they're not adequately represented.

Like I said, I generally support trade unions as *part* of workplace organising but I also think that maybe they should take a long hard look at their rule books and reorganise to suit their members.

 

[articul8]

I don't disagree at all about the big unions needing to get their act together - but there is also something very valuable in the old motto "unity is strength". Forming new unions is no magic wand for anything.

 

[cesare]

I don't disagree at all about the big unions needing to get their act together - but there is also something very valuable in the old motto "unity is strength". Forming new unions is no magic wand for anything.

There's more to direct action workplace organising than forming new unions, you know. People can do this without the benefit of unions if they're shown how to do it. And solidarity should be for co workers, not masters (of whatever ilk).

Edit: and when I say "co workers" I mean all sorts of work, whether paid or not. And for the people that can't work at all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't disagree at all about the big unions needing to get their act together - but there is also something very valuable in the old motto "unity is strength".

Unity can and does proceed from individuals finding a consensus through debate - the grassroots directing the union's heirarchy as to what actions it favours - the traditional role of a union, you might say. What we have all too often, even with the most progressive party and TUC-affiliated TUs, is the heirarchy directing the grassroots as to what to do, how far to go, usually influenced by the fact that operating outside legislative boundaries will make them personally-liable for employer losses, and the union's assets liable to sequestration. Effectively, that sort of "unity" means an ever-weakening body of trades unions with an ever-decreasing scope for action.

Forming new unions is no magic wand for anything.

Well, that depends whether this putative "new union" falls in with the "old school" unions, doesn't it?

 

[articul8]

well, there needs to be a political fight against anti-union legislation as well. The UK is already one of the worst offenders, and it's getting worse...

 

[cesare]

well, there needs to be a political fight against anti-union legislation as well. The UK is already one of the worst offenders, and it's getting worse...

The damage is done. It was done a long time ago.

 

[cesare]

Damn. I still got drawn into arguing against a pro-Labour argument which ends up looking like anti-trade union, which I'm not

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Unity can and does proceed from individuals finding a consensus through debate - the grassroots directing the union's heirarchy as to what actions it favours - ?

Any mass grassroots union that was formed right now would not be any more left or militant than the current bunch - indeed some would be more rightwing - for example the membership of PCS are generally to the right of their leaders...

 

[cesare]

Any mass grassroots union that was formed right now would not be any more left or militant than the current bunch - indeed some would be more rightwing - for example the membership of PCS are generally to the right of their leaders...

CPSA and NUCPS and FDA. So a weird merging when you think that some of them had sacking rights over others. My experience of civil servants is a bit limited (so I'm not generalising) but even so it was very strange to hear privately educated and "entitled" members disagreeing with a very forward thinking union rep. Very odd indeed.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Any mass grassroots union that was formed right now would not be any more left or militant than the current bunch - indeed some would be more rightwing - for example the membership of PCS are generally to the right of their leaders...

Bit of an oxymoron this.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

CPSA and NUCPS and FDA. So a weird merging when you think that some of them had sacking rights over others. My experience of civil servants is a bit limited (so I'm not generalising) but even so it was very strange to hear privately educated and "entitled" members disagreeing with a very forward thinking union rep. Very odd indeed.

FDA weren't part of the merger though

I don't find that odd to be fair - the fact a huge % of good union reps are to the left of their members and indeed I would argue the majority of fulltimers are to the left of their members on the whole (which is not to say better than, or respecting of democracy or anything).

People will in my experience often want the most militant person in the workplace to be their rep. The problem then comes because they expect them to be a leader and not to have to do any work themselves.

That's not to criticise those members that do that, it's just the way things are suckers.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Bit of an oxymoron this.

I know, nevertheless there it is.

 

[cesare]

FDA weren't part of the merger though

I don't find that odd to be fair - the fact a huge % of good union reps are to the left of their members and indeed I would argue the majority of fulltimers are to the left of their members on the whole (which is not to say better than, or respecting of democracy or anything).

People will in my experience often want the most militant person in the workplace to be their rep. The problem then comes because they expect them to be a leader and not to have to do any work themselves.

That's not to criticise those members that do that, it's just the way things are suckers.

Oops sorry, I get well confused with all these mergers

I can see what you mean, but in this instance I felt that the members were dismissive/condescending (although tbf, they were with everyone not just him ) for no apparent reason. But it was a very limited experience and probably by no means representative of civil servants as a whole.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Oops sorry, I get well confused with all these mergers

I can see what you mean, but in this instance I felt that the members were dismissive/condescending (although tbf, they were with everyone not just him ) for no apparent reason. But it was a very limited experience and probably by no means representative of civil servants as a whole.

I dunno my missus used to represent social workers having been on a low admin grade and they combined being very demanding with very patronising quite often

 

[cesare]

I dunno my missus used to represent social workers having been on a low admin grade and they combined being very demanding with very patronising quite often

I can imagine that! Grit teeth and carry on etc.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I can imagine that! Grit teeth and carry on etc.

of course.

What this whole debate boils down to is in my view - not about building new mass formations, or staying in current ones, but about building working class self confidence, unity, and ability to self organise.

Sometimes that will need to be built within the mainstream unions, other times it will need to be built in our communities, sometimes a local far left or community group will be the best sphere, sometimes a resident's association, sometimes a completely new tack, other times a more informal method. Sometimes I think it could quite happen in a good Labour party ward branch or through a local Socialist Party branch, or a Solfed led campaign.

However what is key is that it is driven by working class people making demands based on our self identified needs - not what far left union reps, or full timers or activist groups tell people it should be.

We can't just magic up a movement from nowhere - and the biggest mistakes in my view is to either create hollow structures that you hope might one day become mass orgs (IWW) or to spit our dummies out and walk away from where most people currently are (I'm not srguing most people currently are in mainstream unions here by the way).

If you want an audience for your politics you have to find them, they might be in your local pub, your local WI, your workplace your local working men's club, your local church or hanging around outside the youth club...

 

[Lo Siento.]

I know, nevertheless there it is.

oxymoron as in "if they formed a mass rank-and-file union that would make them inherently more active and militant than they (or their leaders) are now, regardless of the content of their actual individual politics".

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

oxymoron as in "if they formed a mass rank-and-file union that would make them inherently more active and militant than they (or their leaders) are now, regardless of the content of their actual individual politics".

exactly

 

[ViolentPanda]

well, there needs to be a political fight against anti-union legislation as well. The UK is already one of the worst offenders, and it's getting worse...

That's been needed for 20 years, but guess what?
That's right, neither the Tories or the other two neoliberal parties are interested in repealing or modifyng anti-union legislation, and it's not exactly been on the agenda of many of the "union barons" either. Some of them have been content to just fall in line with whatever is most likely to get them a sinecure.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Damn. I still got drawn into arguing against a pro-Labour argument which ends up looking like anti-trade union, which I'm not

You're obviously not "anti-union". It's fairer to say that you oppose the (in)actions of the leaders of some of the TUC's member unions.
So do I.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Any mass grassroots union that was formed right now would not be any more left or militant than the current bunch - indeed some would be more rightwing - for example the membership of PCS are generally to the right of their leaders...

They might. Is the fear that they might be so a good reason to continue feeding resources to organisations tied to a busted flush (Labour), and who are mostly restrained by legislation and fear from taking hard action?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

They might. Is the fear that they might be so a good reason to continue feeding resources to organisations tied to a busted flush (Labour), and who are mostly restrained by legislation and fear from taking hard action?

Yes, when there is clearly no desire for radical rank and file militant formations we do the best we can with what we've got.

 

[gawkrodger]

- indeed some would be more rightwing - for example the membership of PCS are generally to the right of their leaders...

About 18 months ago a PCS rep. grassed me up to my chief exec. for unionising some of our workers

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

About 18 months ago a PCS rep. grassed me up to my chief exec. for unionising some of our workers

exactly

 

[butchersapron]

I see Liberty and sausages have given up as well.

 

[Cornetto]

I dunno my missus used to represent social workers having been on a low admin grade and they combined being very demanding with very patronising quite often

One of my worst experiences of trade unionism is having a rep who has not done my job, although they were good they lacked insight into the role and experience of the staff. I am not having a go at your partner, I have defended, repped and been a social worker they are a mean, precious bunch. I have also repped different grades and roles and to be honest I did not have a real working knowledge of their work and this made it harder to defend and plan as a unionist. Trade unionism is not an objective sterile advocacy role, the collective is built in sections and that means shared job experience. My best experience has been within UCU we are all teachers/researchers and academics we have a strong voice and the rank n file rep movement is strong the shared working experience and solidarity promoted by this is a central factor.

 

[cesare]

I see Liberty and sausages have given up as well.

So about 30* members needing a new home then?


* a rough guess.

 

[butchersapron]

Bit of an over-guess i think! I'm sure there's some other tiny group they could try and take over anyway. What did they miss last time around?

 

[cesare]

Bit of an over-guess i think! I'm sure there's some other tiny group they could try and take over anyway. What did they miss last time around?

Probably Were they anything to do with Chakrabarti (sp)?

 

[cesare]

I wonder if, in their displaced confusion, they head for Solidarity lol.