I agree the social workers should have elected their own reps this is what was particularly frustrating in this case always demanding but not prepared to put the work in themselves.
Split within the IWW?
- Thread starter Spanky Longhorn
- Start date
I agree the social workers should have elected their own reps this is what was particularly frustrating in this case always demanding but not prepared to put the work in themselves.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Lots of cleaners care.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
Yes, not just the cleaners who may now have the gains they won stripped away from them but also anyone who was really liking the moves that were being made not just by IWW but also Unite and RMT to bring cleaners up to getting the London Living Wage. imo it was a really important area of campaigning that was actually achieving victories. I have no idea how much the unions were working with each other or at each others throats but from the outside it's seemed like in the last couple of years there has been a big interest in organising london cleaners and real efforts and victories have been made, with IWW being an important part of that.
The split just fucks that up, or opens it up for Unite/RMT to come in and take over where self-organisation was happening before.
Personally I'd hoped that it would also spread outside of london, or help with other workers confidence for demanding the living wage for themselves. Anything that slows that process down or fucks it up properly is something lots of people should care about.
Cornetto
yesh
If they are setting up a cleaning union with the IWGB, then they will have union support or they can go back to a bigger union with a strong section or rank and file experience. It is the ability to organise in any structure not the brand that matters. I was asked to join Bradford IWW, I declined I do not see how it would have contributed to or helped my workplace union activity, my colleagues would have thought it some type of live action role playing society.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
yeah but IWGB are not certified, nor afaik is it anything more than 2 people, so how much union support there will be is questionable. They won't go back to Unite for personal reasons apparently, RMT have been mentioned in this thread as a possibility.
and imo the brand does matter for organising, because it helps bring new people to you, and helps you if you are going out to organise in workplaces because you can point to what you've done elsewhere, and give people confidence in you/themselves taking action.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
That's if they still have jobs.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
Now you'll never know. Cut the cheap jibes n'all.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It's not a pretty look when there's some workers in threat of their livelihoods because of this shit, is it.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I should explain.
http://www.change.org/petitions/justice-for-the-cleaners-at-societe-generale
If you look at the link, only the IWGB workers have been suspended, probably because the employer has caught wind of the fact that the IWGB isn't certified yet.
http://www.change.org/petitions/justice-for-the-cleaners-at-societe-generale
If you look at the link, only the IWGB workers have been suspended, probably because the employer has caught wind of the fact that the IWGB isn't certified yet.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
If it's so dully futile, why are you doing it?
Cornetto
yesh
I am a dull and futile person.
I still do not see the point of either the IWW or IWGB, i would organise a militant section in a larger 'certified' union with all the supporting resources.
Cornetto
yesh
I know the people, and they have no relevance or insight to my work place. Best of luck with the IWW project i can not see it going any where, not a jibe my opinion.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
The IWW is certified. Was it too dull and futile to read the thread?
Cornetto
yesh
I understand it is certified, it is still in my opinion a live action role playing society. I would always reamin and am a member of large certified union, that has the rsources to deal with employers on an industrial scale. This example of IWW/IWGB highlights in a microcosm the sheer pointlessness of the far left, splitting infighting and on the road to no where.I'm not having a go i am just calling it as i see it. I would not want to go into an employment tribunal with the IWW covering my back. It is shit that low wage cleaners got caught in the middle of the far left infighting.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
We don't need luck or your best wishes. We've been involved in the struggle since 1905 and, at times, our "project" has delivered results against the most brutal attacks.
We're not going "anywhere" but forward.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
None of the TUC affiliated unions wanted anything to do with the cleaners. The IWW took up their case for representation and won. Sounds as if they were lucky not to have ended up being represented by the likes of you pal.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It's CF's personal project, carried out in such a way (i.e. hastily and without the benefit of certification) that the only people that have suffered have been the cleaners. But if you want to position it as in-fighting, go ahead. Why you'd want to do that unless you've got some personal gripe with the IWW though is a bit of a mystery.
Cornetto
yesh
Why would i represent cleaners, i look after my section within education and have done for 3 years, Prior to that i orgnanised as within health and the volunary sector. I have an outstanding record with UCU on case work/disciplinary hearings and have negotiated individual and collective deals for members increasing contractual hours/wages and conditions.I have organised and won local disputes with colleagues in realtion to work patterns/programme revies and supported the delivery of 3 national strike days. I and other comrades spent months and years organising UCU left which has been instrumental in starting the fightback on public sector pensions; we kicked off the first national strike, without a lot of effort at UCU congress several years running pensions dispute would be off the agenda. Good work for the IWW, i believe they should have won and got back into the TUC union movement as long term plan - the IWW for me is a no goer. This is not personal just my opinion. Are you Scottish? Otherwise 'Pal' is a terrible affectation.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
This is where you fail to understand the IWW's position. The IWW regards the TUC as an obstacle to progress. fyi the IWW has never been TUC affiliated. Why work with the boss' lackeys?
Cornetto
yesh
I understand the IWW position; Politically i agree with eth IWW regarding the TUC and the need for a social revoloution, one big union and a general strike; however most of my colleagues view it at as utter cods wollop and akin to telling them you found god just outside cleckheaton on the 229 Bus. They dont regard work as a place of revoloutionary dissent, they accept the premise of work and the society they live within and they would like better conditions, wages and some equlaity, the TUC offers this. Work manufactures consent for the current system and foces people into a collusion. I hope they succeed and we have one big union and have a general strike, something tells me we it will not happen.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
I agree with a lot of what you've said in the past few posts but your in a workplace with a union that is strong and generally good unionisation. Where IWW has a good chance of being effective, and where we agreed to be looking towards at the recent conference was to those areas where there are not strong or deep unions - particularly cleaners and retail sector.
People in London might have a better idea but from here it's seemed like in the last couple of years cleaners have won some real victories, at an economic time when it shouldn't be happening. Unite have been active as well as IWW but I think that IWW starting to arganise amongst cleaners made unite step up so that they didn't lose a section of their workers to a union that was actually doing stuff and organising.
From this thread I now know that Albert Durango (who is one of the two people at IWGB, along with Chris Ford) left Unite because they weren't supporting him to organise amongst cleaners.. so this trail of events makes sense - Albert can't get Unite moving with cleaners, leaves and goes to IWW which was certified a couple of years ago. Starts organising amongst cleaners and getting members. Unite start worrying and start moving at UCL iirc, maybe another London uni, and get LLW for their members there iirc.
Pressure from outside the union appears to have done more good than pressure from inside it. Now RMT are also getting active with their cleaners.
It is entirely possible that I've got this chain of events wrong btw, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I have.
As to retail, USDAW are useless (seven days a week), and Unite aren't much better. Lots of retail is entirely ununionised, zero hours contracts, precarious and part time workers, which TUC unions haven't had much interest in. IWW has a long history of organising precarious workers. This is where I think we can do real good and where I think that pressure form outside the union is more likely to have an effect, particulary with USDAW who seem to have quite a lot of non-strike agreements in exchange for sole recognition with employers.
Cornetto
yesh
That was my point the IWW is irrelevant for my context (and a lot of other workers), my other issue is if it successful over time, i don’t see it going beyond moving into the mainstream TUC, as they attract more members through winning improved conditions; the revolutionary discourse will be challenged and people will want 'bread and butter ' issues, this won’t be a sell out more an inevitable consequence of success. I also feel that the IWW is a bit of a activist brand imported from some American history book, Joe Hill, black cats and the wobbly talk handbook have very little resonance beyond a small milieu. However the strategy of organising precarious workers is good, if I was a cleaner, fast food or retail worker i would get involved.
Cornetto
yesh
Since 1905 what pretentious talk, the IWW in Britain is a very recent re start i remember it reforming early 2000, met some lovely people in Bradford who were part of it - they have kicked off again in 2012. IIRC, they, i mean IWW UK had about 200 members, the IWW is an american import and falls into the category of political live action roleplaying, black cats and joe hill. You just sound pompous and totally off the wall.
I think the phrase you're looking for is cargo cult. Occupy in the UK was very much like this as well, a poor imitation of what was going on elsewhere that took place within a really narrow group of people.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
The IWW have been active in Britain since 1908. I have held my red card for 12 years and my membership originally stems from familial ties. My grandfather was a member in Canada and his father before him. You can cut the Ad Hominem slights as well Herbert.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
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