Soldier's mother Cindy Sheehan in Bush protest

[Bernie Gunther]

I think it's a mistake to single out one cause. You can find pretty much all the filters of the propaganda model operating there if you look. You can also see it in action with Cindy Sheehan. She sounds like a pretty middle of the road US anti-war blogger to me, but I get the idea that she's already starting to make the liberal press in the US kind of nervous when she starts going off about Israel or calls Bush's crowd "a bunch of fucking hypocrites"

PS I just heard US news sources are saying her mother just had a stroke

 

[fela fan]

Oh and please don't patronise me as you have done here

You take everything so personal nino. I don't patronise anyone, so there's no need to think you've been patronised, at least by me. Again man, fucking lighten up!

The last time we spoke i made myself very clear if i was talking about all british people (ie each and every individual), or british people as a whole (which you quoted me on). You were unclear, so i spelt it out. But you appear to have not accepted my explanation.

'As a whole' means the sum of the individuals. People looking in at britain would conclude that the british people voted blair back in.

They'd not stop to think that quite obviously some individuals within the whole didn't vote for the killer.

And like it or not, being british means getting blamed for things that we might have nothing to do with individually. Fuick, some wonderful american citizens get killed or spat on just for being american, even though they have long since disowned their leaders.

Guilty by association. You don't like it, but it's gonna happen.

 

[fela fan]

I don't think your viewpoint represents most of the people I've been coming into contact with over the last few weeks though. On the contrary, I think there is deep anger at Blair in at least 1/4 of the population and some serious questioning of the role of Iraq in getting us into this mess going on with at least another 1/2 or so.

That seems pretty anecdotal to me bernie, especially extrapolating it to the general population. I also do keep hearing and reading about how people are angry at blair, before and after the last election. I keep hearing about this anger, and its consequence: despair at what they can't do to change anything. But then i see the man endorsed with another term, and i see him consistently getting away with his lies and crimes.

And i'm not sure how much blame we can attach to our toothless media. People are intelligent beings, or at least, have the choice to be one. No, to me it's much more a case of only having time to worry about oneself and one's immediate family and/or neighbourhood. And with the massive workloads and intrusions into family life, i'm not particuarly blaming them.

What i found very instructive however, was when the tsunami hit. There were graphic descriptions in the media of the despair, loss of life, dreadful human tragedies, and wow, just look at the reaction by the british people. Most impressively generous and empathetic. That was a natural human tragedy, fully reported upon by the mass media.

The man-made one (or american and british man-made one, not forgetting the australian part) gets no graphic description of the human tragedy unfolding in iraq, and thus it has no great impact on the collective consciousness.

[i recall posting up a picture of an iraqi family fleeing down a highway from bombs, it was in the bangkok post, but not in the british media. The picture itself told the real story of these fucking stupid wars and moved one to tears.]

Having written that i wish to undo any blame i may have attached to the british people. Even the americans wouldn't be complaining now if it weren't for their own deaths.

I realise there are a few apparant contradictions in this post, but that's life for you.

 

[fela fan]

And ps mate, i completely by accident stumbled upon some nice words you wrote about me, yesterday i think but not sure, but: i'm NOT a conspiracy theorist or fan!

It might look like it at times on urban, but i have a tendency to deliberately confirm misconceptions about me, here or in life in general. I find one of the worst human traits is going around judging others based on their own preconceptions of life as if they had no bad points about themselves. Thus, rather than argue it, i play with their limited thinking.

If they want me to be a cter, then okay i'm one, if they want me to be patronising, then ok that's what i am. If i'm clueless, then ok i'm clueless. I am what they want me to be. Up to them mate.

You're too clever for half of them, hence me bothering to explain myself. If we spoke for a few minutes, you'd know full well i'm nowhere near a cter! It would go right against the grain of everything i live my life by.

 

[fela fan]

Why hasn't this happened? Well there's the million dollar question.

And here's the million dollar answer mate:

it's in our psyche. One thing i find hard to articulate, but which i understand fully, is that blair, the media, and the people all belong to a psyche, a way of life if you like, that is british. It's no good just blaming the media, or the leaders, we the people are part of the same whole.

Until we, the people, put our hands up and accept our part in the butchering in far flung countries by our soldiers who've been hired by our leaders, the whole thing being misreported (due to constraints posed by the british psyche), then we will continue to observe britain being involved in criminal actions on this globe.

Of course, this is most depressing to those of us who put humanity before nationality. I clearly recall thinking that many of those who marched against the war were doing it for misplaced reasons.

Even now, if there had been no american casualties, then there'd be no, or very little, anti-war sentiment in the US.

No blame attached by me, but the american and british people have yet to accept resonsibility as a whole to what their nations do in their name. We are arrogant killers, full stop.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Smear of the day, from Frontpagemag.

Cindy Sheehan Urinates on Son's Memory

Lovely bunch aren't they?

 

[jonH]

it's meant to heal

 

[Bernie Gunther]

That seems pretty anecdotal to me bernie, especially extrapolating it to the general population. <snip>

It's not meant to be any more than anecdotal, but I figured that was ok here, because I wasn't trying to argue against a case well-supported by verified evidence.

Phil gave his impression, I gave mine. It's based on a pretty large sample because I've been travelling a great deal over the last few months, as I'm doing some work that requires me to be in a lot of places organising stuff.

So I'm going in and out of London on public transport, using taxis to rush from place to place and I tend to get talking to lots of people when I'm doing that.

I certainly wouldn't make any stronger claim than in my opinion regarding this though. There are all sorts of reasons why my "sample" may not be statistically representative of the country as a whole.

I think it's enough of a sample that I can fairly confidently say there isn't widespread apathy and that a significant number of people are very angry at Blair, but frustrated at the lack of any clear way to do anything about it.

I wouldn't make any stronger claims for this "sample" though.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Apparently she has left the vigil to be with her mother who has had a stroke. Others are staying though and she hopes to return

 

[fela fan]

I wouldn't make any stronger claims for this "sample" though.

Well, you've strengthened it quite a bit for sure in this post!

The reason i mentioned it in the first place is that i've heard about this anger, and the apparant despair for quite some time, but he keeps on getting away with all these lies and crimes.

It probably comes down to the fact that i find it impossible within myself to accept the political default that britain goes by.

Where i cannot make up my mind is on how much the british people can be held accountable for their leaders' actions.

I can't help thinking about the spanish example phil reminded us of.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yes, but in the Spanish case, the obvious party of opposition was clearly anti-war, so they had a democratic expression for their feelings. In the Cindy Sheehan case, they had a US liberal media who mostly don't like their pro-war leadership. In the UK, neither of those avenues are available to us to anything like the same extent and our anti-war movement increasingly seems to have been captured by the usual suspects and hence, become isolated.

 

[fela fan]

Yes, but in the Spanish case, the obvious party of opposition was clearly anti-war, so they had a democratic expression for their feelings. In the Cindy Sheehan case, they had a US liberal media who mostly don't like their pro-war leadership. In the UK, neither of those avenues are available to us to anything like the same extent and our anti-war movement increasingly seems to have been captured by the usual suspects and hence, become isolated.

Okay, that makes sense. I'd better not go futher from this, coz it needs another thread. But your last sentence provokes both questions and answers for me.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Okay, that makes sense. I'd better not go futher from this, coz it needs another thread. But your last sentence provokes both questions and answers for me.

I think it's a matter for another thread too.

 

[nino_savatte]

You take everything so personal nino. I don't patronise anyone, so there's no need to think you've been patronised, at least by me. Again man, fucking lighten up!

The last time we spoke i made myself very clear if i was talking about all british people (ie each and every individual), or british people as a whole (which you quoted me on). You were unclear, so i spelt it out. But you appear to have not accepted my explanation.

'As a whole' means the sum of the individuals. People looking in at britain would conclude that the british people voted blair back in.

They'd not stop to think that quite obviously some individuals within the whole didn't vote for the killer.

And like it or not, being british means getting blamed for things that we might have nothing to do with individually. Fuick, some wonderful american citizens get killed or spat on just for being american, even though they have long since disowned their leaders.

Guilty by association. You don't like it, but it's gonna happen.

Again, you're being patronising, particularly when you reply with "you take everything so personal". Perhaps you don't realise you are being patronising, though I suspect you do.

If you took the time to think about things before posting them, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[fela fan]

Again, you're being patronising, particularly when you reply with "you take everything so personal". Perhaps you don't realise you are being patronising, though I suspect you do.

If you took the time to think about things before posting them, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Oh nino, how easily and deftly you become what you say others are: literally from one para to the next para!! If i took time to think eh??? Well mate, just how patronising could that sound huh? Gee i must be a bit of a thicky eh, if only i could just think before i speak...

Life is full of little wonders.

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh nino, how easily and deftly you become what you say others are: literally from one para to the next para!! If i took time to think eh??? Well mate, just how patronising could that sound huh? Gee i must be a bit of a thicky eh, if only i could just think before i speak...

Life is full of little wonders.

Yawn! If you only you took the time to read what you've typed before you posted (just to extend the theme).

Flamin' hippies.

 

[phildwyer]

I suppose there's a certain logic behind the "I didn't vote for him, what do you want me to do" argument, and there's more behind the "I hate him, he doesn't represent me" argument. That's what Germans said under Hitler. But the difference was that they'd have been killed if they tried to do anything--as thousands of them were, of course. A better analogy might be Americans during Vietnam, where the protest movement in the US basically won the war for the North Vietnamese, or at least, the war couldn't have been won without that movement. So to those who ask "what do you want me to do," a protest march might be a start. Has there even been an anti-war demo of any significance in the last year?

 

[fela fan]

Yawn! If you only you took the time to read what you've typed before you posted (just to extend the theme).

Flamin' hippies.

Roughly 95-99% of the time i read whatever i write before pressing the button nino. It's my job mate. Sometimes a few times.

Hippy? No, but good luck to em.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yeah, right.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here's an interesting but slightly creepy story. Some US ISPs spam filters appear to be blocking e-mails, including outgoing ones, with some URLs connected to the Cindy Sheehan campaign. People are being encouraged to send test mails and many are reporting that their mail is being blocked ...

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001720.htm
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/1852

PS My guess is some technically savvy freeper types have been doing some ratfucking. Provoking ISPs automated spam filters into action with fake spam.

 

[nino_savatte]

The right wing bitchfest continues

As one would expect, Cindy Sheehan has drawn flak from the usual right wing commentators. Here's Coulter's take...one wonders whether she wrote this herself.

Call me old-fashioned, but a grief-stricken war mother shouldn't have her own full-time PR flack. After your third profile on "Entertainment Tonight," you're no longer a grieving mom; you're a C-list celebrity trolling for a book deal or a reality show.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20050818.shtml

No, Ann, we aren't calling you old fashioned, we're calling you a heartless harridan with political views that are little different to the average Nazi.

Elsewhere on Townhall.com., the resident psychologist pops up to give her 'expert' opinion.

Cindy Sheehan’s campaign long ago lost any pretense of being a mother’s grief-stricken reaction to her son’s tragic death. When Sheehan’s 24-year-old son, Casey, was killed in Baghdad last year, she founded an antiwar organization called Gold Star Families. Now, she has combined Madison Avenue and K Street by hiring a political consultant, public relations advisors, and establishing a website in an organized effort to keep the cameras on her and her cause.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GuestColumns/Crouse20050819.shtml

Well, Crouse has a Ph.D and is a member of "Concerned Women for America". But is she really a psychologist? Town Hall are keeping schtum.
http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp

Meanwhile Tony Snow takes a more bitchy, sensationalist tone.

Her "why are we here" remark does set a tone, however, and those of like minds and sensibilities have joined Mother Sheehan in her demand that President Bush alter his vacation plans, so he can hold another audience with her.

These fellow squatters include a man who refers to himself as Mr. Foot Massager. Mr. Foot Massager massages feet. Actually, he limits his ministrations to two feet, both of which belong to Mother Sheehan. He has become her designated bunion kneader.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/tonysnow/TS20050819.shtml

 

[X-77]

Here's an interesting but slightly creepy story. Some US ISPs spam filters appear to be blocking e-mails, including outgoing ones, with some URLs connected to the Cindy Sheehan campaign. People are being encouraged to send test mails and many are reporting that their mail is being blocked ...

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001720.htm
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/1852

PS My guess is some technically savvy freeper types have been doing some ratfucking. Provoking ISPs automated spam filters into action with fake spam.

I was sent an email about Cindy Sheehan and it went into my spam folder on my gmail account (it had the words 'camp casey' in the subject heading).

I was on the dissent (anti-g8) mailing list and all their emails went into my spam folder on my hotmail account too come to think of it....never really thought there was anything suspicious in it until now.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I was sent an email about Cindy Sheehan and it went into my spam folder on my gmail account (it had the words 'camp casey' in the subject heading).

I was on the dissent (anti-g8) mailing list and all their emails went into my spam folder on my hotmail account too come to think of it....never really thought there was anything suspicious in it until now.

It seems to be associated with a particular spam filter product popular with ISPs, called "Brightmail"

Whether it's a product fault, an intentional "feature" or the result of wingnuts spoofing the spam filters into blocking stuff they find inconvenient, it's probably worth running some tests of your own, along the lines suggested.

 

[Sorry.]

I hadn't registered before but Casey Sheehan was actually killed fighting Muqtada Al-Sadr's militia. Him and his militia having been subsequently absorbed into the institutions of the occupation.

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/

Not sure how significant that is, but certainly makes his death even more futile...

 

[nino_savatte]

Just to add to that, here's a piece from Aaron Glantz via commondreams

I was there as an unembedded journalist. Unlike Casey Sheehan, I wasn’t killed.

I had traveled to Sadr City to cover the Bush Administration’s undemocratic attack on the movement of Shi’ite cleric Muqtada Sadr. It didn’t matter that the cleric had millions of followers or that he was scion to an important political family with a history of standing up to tyranny. (His father was killed by Saddam’s regime for fomenting revolution in 1999. His uncle, Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Sadr, was killed for leading an insurrection against Ba’ath rule in 1980.)

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0818-22.htm

 

[pbman]

Storm*front is also getting in on the crawford protests.

ROFLMAO

Apperently the nazi's agree with her about isreal.

http://www. stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=2119672&posted=1

 

[nino_savatte]

Storm*front is also getting in on the crawford protests.

ROFLMAO

Apperently the nazi's agree with her about isreal.

http://www. stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=2119672&posted=1

You're a liar, that URL is not valid. But plenty of people - who wouldn't call themselves Nazis - have organised a counter demonstration they call "Camp Reality". What is it with you right wingnuts? Do you think you have a monopoly on the truth?

I daresay our good friends from Protest Warrior will be there, together with loads of idiots waving placards that say "You don't speak for me". Which leads me to another point: this phrase is often used by those trying to distance themselves from the ideas or actions of those they feel are being 'disrespectful to the president' or are otherwise seen as traitorous. Indeed many black Americans said the same thing when Paul Robeson declared his socialism during a time when to do so was considered 'dangerous'.

This is from The Guardian

Waiting at Camp Reality -the pro-war activists' name for their headquarters - is Valerie Duty, 46, a local resident who declares a little coquettishly that she is a "friend" of the president. She is on the telephone when the Guardian arrives, trying to arrange a delivery of donated bottled water, a physical necessity in the wilting, 38C (100F) heat. "There has been a silent majority during the siege against our president," she says. "But this weekend that majority is going to speak out."

Asked about the pro-war groups' links with Move Forward America, which is sponsoring the "You Don't Speak For Us, Cindy!" tour, Mrs Duty says all their donations come from concerned individuals.

New York Times columnist Frank Rich describes the attacks as the "swift boating" of Cindy Sheehan, a reference to the campaign to discredit John Kerry's Vietnam war record that was credited with derailing his presidential campaign.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1557526,00.html?gusrc=rss

When those people shout "You don't speak for me", I am reminded of Pastor Niemoller's poem "Then They Came". It's a pity none of them have heard of it.

 

[Jo/Joe]

pbman, do you condemn the outrageous media slurs on a grieving mother looking for answers? even if you disagree with her views, don't you agree that she has been treated badly by the right wing 'media'?

I am not refering to alleged exploitation by michael moore or anyone else (nice of her family to consider her incapable of holding her own views). Has she been treated badly? Yes or no?

 

[pbman]

pbman, do you condemn the outrageous media slurs on a grieving mother looking for answers? even if you disagree with her views, don't you agree that she has been treated badly by the right wing 'media'?
?

All the right wing media i've seen has been respectfull, in disscuing her, but i've seen plenty of left wing media outright lie about what they have said.

We on the right, know that the whole things is being run by a dodgy PR company from california, and paid for by dodgy groups, and such, but that doesn't make the news..........

Now a bunch of mothers who have also lost family members have gone down their, and they strongly dissagree, with her.

Have you even heard about this,or is your press to baised?

 

[pbman]

You're a liar, that URL is not valid. QUOTE]

Of course its not valid, i broke the link.

But the racist nazi's, share a hatred of jews, so they agree with the radical left on that point.

I daresay our good friends from Protest Warrior will be there, together with loads of idiots waving placards that say "You don't speak for me".

WE don't need "protest warriors" a bunch of mothers whent down their who also lost family members.

Don't tell me you havne't heard of this?