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Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?

Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Don't know

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hitmouse said:
Do you reckon there's a kind of vicious circle effect where people have to over-sell vaccines to an extent to try and counteract the damage that's done by anti-vax stuff, and the over-selling then leads to holes that anti-vaxxers can exploit? Over the last week or so, various of my housemates have come out with stuff along the lines of "they said that having the vaccine would mean I/you could do [xyz] and now we can't, so I can't see what the point is". I have tried being firm on the line that vaccination leading to reduced transmission and hospitalisation is worth it, even if it doesn't allow you to do international travel during a pandemic without having a test or whatever, but do reckon some of the way the vaccine was sold was unhelpful on this score.
Although I am also open to the argument that that's nothing to do with the anti-vaxxers and all just cos of neoliberalism or whatever.
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There was all sorts of scruffy messaging, and people also tend to remember things their own way.
 
hitmouse said:
Do you reckon there's a kind of vicious circle effect where people have to over-sell vaccines to an extent to try and counteract the damage that's done by anti-vax stuff, and the over-selling then leads to holes that anti-vaxxers can exploit? Over the last week or so, various of my housemates have come out with stuff along the lines of "they said that having the vaccine would mean I/you could do [xyz] and now we can't, so I can't see what the point is". I have tried being firm on the line that vaccination leading to reduced transmission and hospitalisation is worth it, even if it doesn't allow you to do international travel during a pandemic without having a test or whatever, but do reckon some of the way the vaccine was sold was unhelpful on this score.
Although I am also open to the argument that that's nothing to do with the anti-vaxxers and all just cos of neoliberalism or whatever.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think there's an element of that, especially early on as the vaccines were coming out. Johnson often over sold the vaccines when speaking, but among a whole load of other bullshit/over-optimistic stuff as well. But also people do hear what they want to a bit, and the hardcore anti-vax lot are so slippery and goal-post shifting then tbh whatever was said they'd find something to latch on to.

Also on that point you said they're making... they're a thick fucking idiot if they can't see what the point is of having the vaccine.
 
BigMoaner said:
i am sure the unvaxxed logic will be - why refuse me, and not a smoker etc. but smokers have not tipped the balance, the current infrastructure has allowed for them.

maybe we just have to make allowances for them?
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The question is how much damage are we willing to do to our already badly frayed social fabric in order to get this set of nutters under control.
Imo the key effort should be that of peeling the 'vaccine hesitant' away from the nuttier hardcore.
 
8ball said:
The question is how much damage are we willing to do to our already badly frayed social fabric in order to get this set of nutters under control.
Imo the key effort should be that of peeling the 'vaccine hesitant' away from the nuttier hardcore.
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genies out of the bottle now mate. i think the only hope is covid receeding. if it does the opposite, then fuck knows.

might not agree fully with him, but won't forget this guy in a while:

 
"If you really don't think covid is a big deal....PROVE IT and don't go to the fucking hospital"
 
it's genuine question to the thread...

cases sore, hospitalisations sore, putting crippling pressure with no end in sight.

what do we do

will it be the bizaroo situation where all of us who have stuck to the rules keep things under control by social distancing etc, working from etc, just to allow the bed spaces for hte unvacinated?

an argument can be made that those who refuse it are actually curtailing the freedoms of everyone because it's the rest of us who will lock down to protect bed spaces.
 
we all lockdown to allow more room in hospitals for the unvacinated.

so while they are screaming about their choices and freeduumm, it's worth considering that. if they got vacinated, then maybe lockdowns will be less severe?

or am i missing somethign here?

i don't particularly like these people tbh as you've probably worked out :D
 
hitmouse said:
Do you reckon there's a kind of vicious circle effect where people have to over-sell vaccines to an extent to try and counteract the damage that's done by anti-vax stuff, and the over-selling then leads to holes that anti-vaxxers can exploit? Over the last week or so, various of my housemates have come out with stuff along the lines of "they said that having the vaccine would mean I/you could do [xyz] and now we can't, so I can't see what the point is". I have tried being firm on the line that vaccination leading to reduced transmission and hospitalisation is worth it, even if it doesn't allow you to do international travel during a pandemic without having a test or whatever, but do reckon some of the way the vaccine was sold was unhelpful on this score.
Although I am also open to the argument that that's nothing to do with the anti-vaxxers and all just cos of neoliberalism or whatever.
Click to expand...
It's partly because vaccines, mask-wearing, etc, get presented more as being about personal choice of the individual, rather than about protecting others around you. Playing towards individual convenience rather than what is socially necessary in terms of public health is the name of the game. So as it's an individualists stance, it's all about protecting yourself, being able to travel or go down the pub rather than being about looking after the vulnerable. Individualists will always be disappointed because they are basically me, me, me whining gets.
 
BigMoaner said:
genies out of the bottle now mate. i think the only hope is covid receeding. if it does the opposite, then fuck knows.

might not agree fully with him, but won't forget this guy in a while:

Click to expand...

I can get his point about suddenly trusting medicine when they find they have the virus and they're really sick, and I do understand his anger.

I do have skin in the game here, like many of us. I have a fairly threatening aortic aneurysm right now which needs major surgery, and that surgery is being delayed because of all this crap.
It's been there for over a decade and started growing recently. The surgery comes with some major risks, hence them waiting til the aneurysm is looking more imminently threatening than the surgery.

It's tricky. People are dumb. What really boils my piss is when medics, nurses, and others who work with vulnerable people won't have the jab, though.
They get sick and even if not hospitalised they infect the vulnerable, and sometimes their colleagues, and this reduces the supply side of the healthcare equation too.
 
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Shechemite said:
This is what happens when you try to convince people through argument. Less risky (and quicker) to just bring in mandates IMO
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I think I'd say it's a different set of risks rather than less risky.
LynnDoyleCooper said:
Yeah, I think there's an element of that, especially early on as the vaccines were coming out. Johnson often over sold the vaccines when speaking, but among a whole load of other bullshit/over-optimistic stuff as well. But also people do hear what they want to a bit, and the hardcore anti-vax lot are so slippery and goal-post shifting then tbh whatever was said they'd find something to latch on to.

Also on that point you said they're making... they're a thick fucking idiot if they can't see what the point is of having the vaccine.
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Yeah, I can see that. And yeah, it is frustrating - have heard versions of it from both my hardcore antivaxxer housemate, from whom it's particularly fucking galling because he's just enjoyed however many months it's been of lockdown being lifted, which was made possible because of the high vaccination rates*, and my housemate who has had the first two shots but is now reluctant to get the booster, and thinks he doesn't need it because he's healthy. Clearly he's done a good job of filtering out any "vaccines also protect other people" messaging he may have encountered.




* or because lockdown was never needed in the first place because covid is all made up or the same as the flu or whatever, depending on who you ask, I suppose.
Serge Forward said:
It's partly because vaccines, mask-wearing, etc, get presented more as being about personal choice of the individual, rather than about protecting others around you. Playing towards individual convenience rather than what is socially necessary in terms of public health is the name of the game. So as it's an individualists stance, it's all about protecting yourself, being able to travel or go down the pub rather than being about looking after the vulnerable. Individualists will always be disappointed because they are basically me, me, me whining gets.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I tend to agree with you there. Except that looked at rationally, I'd think even the most selfish cost-benefit analysis would go "hmm, trading off having a sore arm for a day or so versus having a reduced risk of hospitalisation, reckon this has to be worth it" if it wasn't for all the crap and disinformation from the ratlicker brigade muddying the waters.
 
hitmouse said:
Thinking about it, already went over some of this on the vaccine passports thread, but the devil really is in the detail here, cos there's a whole host of questions that, even if they don't change your answer to "is it a good idea or not?" should at least affect how much of a good or a bad idea you think it is - so a big one is how do you prove you've had the vaccine, is it wholly through a smartphone app, and so fucks over anyone who doesn't have a smartphone, or doesn't feel like entrusting their data to whichever tory donor got the contract to run the app, or are there alternatives? ...
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I can't install the app due to having a crappy ageing cheap smartphone so ordered myself a paper copy from the NHS website.
BigMoaner said:
i'd force them to tak 6 ees and then on teh come down get them to do the hard level of suduko before entrance to all sporting events etc.
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You make me wish I wasn't vaccinated now
LynnDoyleCooper said:
Being used as Escape Rooms for Xmas parties.
Click to expand...
Super spreaders
 
hitmouse said:
Do you reckon there's a kind of vicious circle effect where people have to over-sell vaccines to an extent to try and counteract the damage that's done by anti-vax stuff, and the over-selling then leads to holes that anti-vaxxers can exploit?
Click to expand...
The flipside of that is that when it was apparent that vaccines weren't as effective at stopping transmission as had been hoped, some people (although not actual experts IIRC) flipped to arguing that the vaccines weren't intended to stop transmission but only to prevent severe disease and death. This is both untrue and allowed antivaxxers to frame it as purely a matter of personal choice, surely it's my decision whether I take the risk. The counterargument that unvaccinated patients burden the health system is a much weaker justification for any sort of compulsion/restrictions, since you can argue that many activities and behaviors massively pressure the health service without being treated in this way.
 
I'm beginning to change my mind, for two main reasons...

1. I want life to get back to normal now, this shit with masks, lock downs etc is horrible and if the only way we can get rid if it is by mandatory vaccines and / or vaccine passport restrictions for the unvaccinated .. then we should do that.

2. I've had to have it, plus boosters, in order to keep my job. There is huge support for this across society, and tbh this has greatly affected my sympathy for personal freedom in this regard. As far as I'm concerned, if i have to have it then everyone can have it.

So yeah, sorry. I'm beginning to think we should just mandate it now for everyone without a genuine doctor's note, and maybe in a year or so we can have all our lives back.
 
mojo pixy said:
I'm beginning to change my mind, for two main reasons...

1. I want life to get back to normal now, this shit with masks, lock downs is horrible and if the only way we can get rid if it is by mandatory vaccines and / or vaccine passport restrictions for the unvaccinated only .. then we should do that.

2. I've had to have it, plus boosters, in order to keep my job. There is huge support for this across society, and tbh this has greatly affected my sympathy for personal freedom in this regard. As far as I concerned, if i have to have it then everyone can have it.

So yeah, sorry. I'm beginning to think we should just mandate it now for everyone without a genuine doctor's note, and maybe in a year or so we can have all our lives back.
Click to expand...
The beligerant selfish arseholes still won’t take it though. The streets would burn before they did I suspect
 
mojo pixy said:
I'm beginning to change my mind, for two main reasons...

1. I want life to get back to normal now, this shit with masks, lock downs etc is horrible and if the only way we can get rid if it is by mandatory vaccines and / or vaccine passport restrictions for the unvaccinated .. then we should do that.

2. I've had to have it, plus boosters, in order to keep my job. There is huge support for this across society, and tbh this has greatly affected my sympathy for personal freedom in this regard. As far as I'm concerned, if i have to have it then everyone can have it.

So yeah, sorry. I'm beginning to think we should just mandate it now for everyone without a genuine doctor's note, and maybe in a year or so we can have all our lives back.
Click to expand...
the only way to return to normality is to give everyone, all over the world, vaccines. otherwise we will remain in this cycle of freedoms and restrictions
 
mojo pixy said:
I'm beginning to change my mind, for two main reasons...

1. I want life to get back to normal now, this shit with masks, lock downs etc is horrible and if the only way we can get rid if it is by mandatory vaccines and / or vaccine passport restrictions for the unvaccinated .. then we should do that.

2. I've had to have it, plus boosters, in order to keep my job. There is huge support for this across society, and tbh this has greatly affected my sympathy for personal freedom in this regard. As far as I'm concerned, if i have to have it then everyone can have it.

So yeah, sorry. I'm beginning to think we should just mandate it now for everyone without a genuine doctor's note, and maybe in a year or so we can have all our lives back.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've been reluctantly pro-vaccine mandate for health and social care jobs (think it should have been dealt with much better much earlier before it got to this but there you go...) but tbh I've shifted to be much more in favour of it there and more generally - although still err way from a mandate for the general population. But I would now be up for more social sanctions and similar measures to make it harder to not have it, and that's sadly enough partly as a result of the absolute lunacy and idiocy the refusers muster to avoid it.
 
LynnDoyleCooper said:
Yeah, I've been relunctantly pro-vaccine mandate for health and social care jobs (think it should have been dealt with much better much earlier before it got to this but there you go...) but tbh I've shifted to be much more in favour of it there and more generally (although still err way from a mandate for the general population, but would be up for more social and practical measures to make it harder to not have it), and that's sadly enough partly as a result of the absolute lunacy and idiocy the refusers muster to avoid it.
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Other than medical reasons I cannot fathom a single moral or intellectual argument in support of refusing it. Not one, and I’ve tried to consider them, really tried. That’s why I’ve always associated their position with a kind of degeneracy.
 
BigMoaner said:
Other than medical reasons I cannot fathom a single moral or intellectual argument in support of refusing it. Not one, and I’ve tried to consider them, really tried. That’s why I’ve always associated their position with a kind of degeneracy.
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People are allowed to make stupid decisions around their own health and healthcare though (assuming capacity), it's more the bit between individual and collective impact that's tricky to negotiate, but that does get managed in all sorts of other areas.

I do wonder if some of the people who refuse are lacking the ability to actively understand the facts and implications though, which could be argued means they lack capacity on some level?
 
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BigMoaner said:
Other than medical reasons I cannot fathom a single moral or intellectual argument in support of refusing it. Not one, and I’ve tried to consider them, really tried. That’s why I’ve always associated their position with a kind of degeneracy.
Click to expand...

TBH I do think 'I shouldn't have to have any medical procedures carried out on me without consent' is a pretty powerful argument just on it's own. You don't necessarily need anything beyond that for it to be a legitimate argument. That said you do have to balance that against the fact that people not having it has all sorts of knock on effects - on public health and also on the freedoms of others to generally live their lives.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
TBH I do think 'I shouldn't have to have any medical procedures carried out on me without consent' is a pretty powerful argument just on it's own. You don't necessarily need anything beyond that for it to be a legitimate argument. That said you do have to balance that against the fact that people not having it has all sorts of knock on effects - on public health and also on the freedoms of others to generally live their lives.
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How about if said medical procedure means society isn’t ravaged by a deadly virus?
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
TBH I do think 'I shouldn't have to have any medical procedures carried out on me without consent' is a pretty powerful argument just on it's own.
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Yeah, if they say, "I understand the risks but on balance I don't want it because...". But what if they say, "I don't want the vaccine as it's full of nanobots that will track me and then I'll die in 2 years when Bill Gates pushes a button"?

The MCA says a person is unable to make a decision if they cannot:
  • understand the information relevant to the decision.
  • retain that information.
  • use or weigh up that information as part of the process of making the decision.
(Musing on this rather than saying it as fact or what I think...).
 
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