Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?

[BigMoaner]

A small taste. And that was just over a partial lockdown.

What of it? They are protesting against monsters in their own minds

 

[magneze]

no, we've been calling people 'loons here for more than two decades

I've only been here 18 years.

 

[elbows]

So far the indications are that they dont even want to make vaccines the only option for getting into venues, choosing to include the option to get a test instead of a vaccine.

They will want to explore measures that may encourage a larger uptake of vaccines, but the prospect of mandatory vaccines in the UK for the general population, as opposed to certain professions, seems far off or non-existent.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's a prediction. I also said there'd be rain today, but I wasn't proposing anything to the clouds

aw, you've got yourself all in a tizzy over the word propose

so much so in fact that you've shown yourself unable to deal with the meat of that post

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

What of it? They are protesting against monsters in their own minds

Most protesters are. I'm not sure the monsters will all of a sudden be vanquished by forcing needles into people's arms.

 

[magneze]

Yes, it seems completely off the table - and with the vaccination rate so high, why is it even a necessary topic for discussion?

 

[LDC]

What of it? They are protesting against monsters in their own minds

And also a mix of reasons why that kind of thing happens. Some pretty fair concerns, some bonkers right wing fueled stuff, and plenty in between.

They will want to explore measures that may encourage a larger uptake of vaccines, but the prospect of mandatory vaccines in the UK for the general population, as opposed to certain professions, seems far off or non-existent.

Yeah, I'd make a massive bet that it'll never happen here.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

aw, you've got yourself all in a tizzy over the word propose

so much so in fact that you've shown yourself unable to deal with the meat of that post

Tizzy? Weird interpretation of my post, but there is certainly a big difference between a proposal and a prediction. One of them being a legal difference

 

[LDC]

...but there is certainly a big difference between a proposal and a prediction. One of them being a legal difference

Like the difference between reality and your paranoid fear that people are going to be pinned down and forced to have a jab?

Wonder if you're so incensed by the medical stuff that happens to people now against their will?

 

[elbows]

It means they'll be blood on the streets. The anger that forced vaccination will generate will be uncontainable.

Wont even be able to put that blood to good use if it doesnt have any neutralising antibodies in it.

 

[Shechemite]

Well mandatory vacciniation in the care industry, has lead to some principaled professionals walking away,

Great principles those

 

[gosub]

Great principles those

walk a mile in their shoes first. Carers are as entitled to an opinion as as anyone else.

 

[Shechemite]

walk a mile in their shoes first. Carers are as entitled to an opinion as as anyone else.

I’ve worked in various care roles. What principle(s) do you think vaccine refusing care professionals are standing up for?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I’ve worked in various care roles. What principle(s) do you think vaccine refusing care professionals are standing up for?

The principle of consent, I would imagine

 

[LDC]

No consent issues at all. Don't give your consent to get your life saving vaccine? Fine, then vulnerable people don't give their consent to be treated or cared for by you as your personal choice puts them at higher risk.

 

[Shechemite]

Not really. If you’re standing up for someone else’s right to refuse consent then it’s principled. If you’re refusing a vaccine for yourself (and then jumping before you’re pushed) isn’t an act of principle.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Not really. If you’re standing up for someone else’s right to refuse consent then it’s principled. If you’re refusing a vaccine for yourself (and then jumping before you’re pushed) isn’t an act of principle.

This is what I thought was being referred to. The ethical implications of a medical professional having to administer a vaccine to an unwilling patient

 

[Pickman's model]

Tizzy? Weird interpretation of my post, but there is certainly a big difference between a proposal and a prediction. One of them being a legal difference

Oh pipe down you bloated bladder

You proposed - you raised - the suggestion of a civil war and now you're trying to squirm out of it

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Oh pipe down you bloated bladder

You proposed - you raised - the suggestion of a civil war and now you're trying to squirm out of it

Nope

 

[Pickman's model]

Nope

Feeble. With an attitude like that the war's already over and you lost

 

[mojo pixy]

It means they'll be blood on the streets. The anger that forced vaccination will generate will be uncontainable.

I don't think as many people will care as much as this, because if it's a battle then it's between individual liberty and social responsibility. Individual liberty can't win that, not really. Plus IMO, the people most vexed about this aren't the people I consider most likely to make personal sacrifices .. I mean, if they won't have a little jab for the sake of something concrete like public health and supporting vulnerable people, why would they get arrested or beaten up, for some abstract freedom? There will be no blood on the streets over this.

It's simply not a life-or-death issue, from that angle. Where it is life-or-death, is where "pro-life" means get vaccinated. That's why the personal freedom argument doesn't have the traction it might, the moral high ground here is wonky. Likewise "bodily autonomy" - the virus itself doesn't know or respect bodily autonomy and nobody gets to choose whether or not they get infected. In the end it's just not fair to keep everyone isolated and masked up indefinitely, so a (small) minority can pretend they remain free from laws and the needs of (goddammit it!) other people.

 

[scalyboy]

This is what I thought was being referred to. The ethical implications of a medical professional having to administer a vaccine to an unwilling patient

I don’t think ‘mandatory vaccine’ means holding people down and forcibly injecting them against their will.

I understood it to mean that people would be unable to attend or travel to certain places without showing proof of being vaccinated (or proof of a recent negative test). That may or may not include being a condition of employment in certain jobs.

As far as medical / care staff refusing the jab, I liken it to registry office staff who refuse to conduct gay marriages - you knew the job would entail this, if your religious or other principles are so opposed to gay marriage you shouldn’t have taken the job in the first place.

Are medical / care worker staff told at the interview or job offer stage that they may be required to have certain vaccinations?
Genuine question BTW, I don’t know the answer.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don’t think ‘mandatory vaccine’ means holding people down and forcibly injecting them against their will.

I understood it to mean that people would be unable to attend or travel to certain places without showing proof of being vaccinated (or proof of a recent negative)

As far as medical / care staff refusing the jab, I liken it to registry office staff who refuse to conduct gay marriages - you knew the job would entail this, if your religious or other principles are so opposed to gay marriage you shouldn’t have taken the job in the first place.

Are medical / care worker staff told at the interview or job offer stage that they may be required to have certain vaccinations?
Genuine question BTW, I don’t know the answer.

I'm sure they're told that now

 

[Yossarian]

don't you think that people fighting the vaxxed ... are going to come off somewhat the worse in this scenario as variant after variant rips through their unprotected systems?

"Ungrateful virus attacks own allies."

 

[scalyboy]

I'm sure they're told that now

And I guess it could be retrospectively applied?
e.g. I once worked in a job where the management changed our terms and conditions (in their favour and to our detriment obvs!) by terminating us all one day and re-employing us the next day on the new contract.

Maybe it could be opposed by a union, although that would depend on whether the union was sympathetic to the antivax people. and how strong the union was - in our case at that time the union was fairly feeble and the branch lacked depth of membership so it went through unopposed.

 

[MickiQ]

And I guess it could be retrospectively applied?
e.g. I once worked in a job where the management changed our terms and conditions (in their favour and to our detriment obvs!) by terminating us all one day and re-employing us the next day on the new contract.

Maybe it could be opposed by a union, although that would depend on whether the union was sympathetic to the antivax people. and how strong the union was - in our case at that time the union was fairly feeble and the branch lacked depth of membership so it went through unopposed.

Your employer can't force you to have a jab without changing your contract of employment and for that they need your agreement, but and truly massive BUT here any employment contract is subservient to the law and the unwritten assumption in any contract is that you obey the law.
If the Govt passes a law saying that any employer can require its staff to have a jab then that's it. If you refuse you can be fired and no union can do anything about it since it is a legitimate dismissal.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I had a bloke deliver some logs to me today. I've known him some years and we always have a nice chat. It turns out he's not had the jab. His daughter and partner have both had Covid, not too severely. He can't see why it matters if he has the vaccine as we now all know that you can catch Omicron and/or pass it on even if you've had the booster. He also says that it may not be a defence against future variants. He works outdoors and often alone, doesn't go to pubs or restaurants. Not a hermit, but not the world's greatest socialite either. He was unconvincable and I couldn't give him any satisfactory statistical argument.

So it's like this. How likely are you to infect somebody else and either make them seriously ill or die, if you have not had the jab, assuming that they have had the jab?

 

[Pickman's model]

Your employer can't force you to have a jab without changing your contract of employment and for that they need your agreement, but and truly massive BUT here any employment contract is subservient to the law and the unwritten assumption in any contract is that you obey the law.
If the Govt passes a law saying that any employer can require its staff to have a jab then that's it. If you refuse you can be fired and no union can do anything about it since it is a legitimate dismissal.

You say that. But I bet there'd be legal challenges to such a law.

 

[Pickman's model]

And I guess it could be retrospectively applied?
e.g. I once worked in a job where the management changed our terms and conditions (in their favour and to our detriment obvs!) by terminating us all one day and re-employing us the next day on the new contract.

Maybe it could be opposed by a union, although that would depend on whether the union was sympathetic to the antivax people. and how strong the union was - in our case at that time the union was fairly feeble and the branch lacked depth of membership so it went through unopposed.

Haven't care workers already had to have the injection and loads have been sacked because they wouldn't? And there's a deadline for NHS staff in the new year

 

[LDC]

Are medical / care worker staff told at the interview or job offer stage that they may be required to have certain vaccinations?
Genuine question BTW, I don’t know the answer.

I think it's changing. I had to have Hep vaccines in the past as condition of work in the NHS (no idea if it was compulsory or not, everybody just gets them afaik) and most jobs have checked my general other vaccine status as part of the application process (and HIV and Hep infection status) but there's never been any problems as I've had them all as I'm not a loon or hippie. So I don't know if I hadn't had them it would have been an issue.

I have applied for a new NHS job in the last 6 weeks and they asked for proof of covid vaccination, so take from that what you will.