beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
You’re a massive twat then.
Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?
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LDC
On est tous des pangolins
A position from the Rage Against the Machine school of "Fuck you I won't tidy my bedroom!" school of 'politics'.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Were council tax refuseniks twats for failing to hand over money to support local services?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
No idea who that is aimed at, but I think refusing to follow a public health measure that's there for the good of everyone because it's been mandated is quite different to withholding some part of your tax due to not agreeing with a particular aspect of what the tax pays for.
Vaccination is not going to be mandated here anyway, so it's all meaningless internet grandstanding.
Vaccination is not going to be mandated here anyway, so it's all meaningless internet grandstanding.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
It's a perfectly consistent position. If you are against a public health measure then you believe the benefits aren't sufficient to justify it. Likewise people who were against the poll tax believed the funding of local services was important, but they disagreed with the method and were prepared to go to jail by refusing to hand over any money.
What's the point of this thread then? Apparently 70% of people here are against mandatory vaccinations. I wonder how they would protest against them?
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Yep, that’s exactly the same.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Why? what's your rationale for doing so? I'm curious not critical.
stdP
One Swiss dinosaur in Polly Gosling's anorak hood
I'd also have to say I don't understand this position. From previous posts you say you think vaccines are a good thing that you've taken willingly, so I don't see what the logic is in refusing to take a booster shot. You're still well within your rights (and logic too IMHO) to take it and still have an honest stance against mandatory vaccines.
I had a wee bunfight over this topic with some friends over the weekend and it seems much of the bone of contention was due to the way that some people were interpreting "mandatory". We basically boiled it down in to two categories:
a) people who are eligible and no contraindicated but who choose not to take the vaccine are fined (or similar minor punishments)
2) people who are eligible and no contraindicated but who choose not to take the vaccine are dragged kicking and screaming in to a centre and get prodded in the arm with a rusty breadknife
Personally I'm hard against 2) but only soft against a). I'd be interested to know if anyone else makes a differentiation for or against based on that categorisation.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
I'm hard against starting a list with letters and then switching to numbers! But yeah, I agree that the specifics are vital, and I'd break it down further, to at the very least:
a) no entry to sports/music/cinemas/similar voluntary leisure events without the vaccine
ii) no work without the vaccine (or ii.a, no work in specific fields without the vaccine)
γ) fines
4) rusty breadknife.
Like, I think I support a) but am against the others. And then you have the distinction between "vaccine or fuck off" and "vaccine or negative test or fuck off" as well.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
As driving on the left is mandatory, are you morally obligated to drive on the right?
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I think there's a whole continuum of pressures/regulations that can be applied isn't there. At one end it's not much more than people saying 'I think you're wrong and that you should get the vaccine'- and the more hardcore anti-vaxxers absolutely do see even that as oppressing them, the twats. Then you've got a whole load of more specific restrictions around access, travel, work etc right through to the rusty breadknife. I'm not 100% in that context how significant the actual point at which it becomes 'mandatory' actually is to be honest. It does feel like a step further which I'd be reluctant to take but if it's only a move from 'you don't have to get a vaccine but if you don't we'll restrict every aspect of your life' to 'you do have to get a vaccine' it might not make that much difference tbh.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
You are in France. The fascist bastards.
wemakeyousoundb
hopefully not gimboid
Any unvaccinated person (without medical exemption) should have to do the limbo succesfully before admittance to indoors/public transport/etc
Not sure yet how low the bar should be placed though
8ball
AV REFUGEES WELCOME
I don't see how that helps anything.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Thinking about it, already went over some of this on the vaccine passports thread, but the devil really is in the detail here, cos there's a whole host of questions that, even if they don't change your answer to "is it a good idea or not?" should at least affect how much of a good or a bad idea you think it is - so a big one is how do you prove you've had the vaccine, is it wholly through a smartphone app, and so fucks over anyone who doesn't have a smartphone, or doesn't feel like entrusting their data to whichever tory donor got the contract to run the app, or are there alternatives? Similarly, there's questions to be asked around immigration status - there's a lot of border infrastructure built into the NHS now, checking it does seem like individuals who don't have an NHS number and aren't registered with a GP can get the vaccine, which is good, but can they satisfactorily demonstrate that they've had the vaccine for the purposes of whatever vaccine mandate? I'm not really sure about that.
And then again there's the question of people who've had the vaccine in other countries, I'm sure I've seen accounts from people who've been tripped up because they've had the vaccine elsewhere and then their medical records don't copy over/aren't accepted by the NHS/they've had a vaccine that isn't approved for use here. I don't know how you'd solve this problem while also screening out genuinely non-vaxxed people trying to pull a fast one, but then I'm not arguing in favour of vaccine mandates so it's not really my problem to solve. I think anyone who is strongly in favour should probably have an explanation for it though.
And then again there's the question of people who've had the vaccine in other countries, I'm sure I've seen accounts from people who've been tripped up because they've had the vaccine elsewhere and then their medical records don't copy over/aren't accepted by the NHS/they've had a vaccine that isn't approved for use here. I don't know how you'd solve this problem while also screening out genuinely non-vaxxed people trying to pull a fast one, but then I'm not arguing in favour of vaccine mandates so it's not really my problem to solve. I think anyone who is strongly in favour should probably have an explanation for it though.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Personally, I have little concern for 'collateral damage' - if there are easy, technical/administrative solutions to issues then I'm happy for them to be explored and facilitated, but I'm making a big omelette, and egg shells are a matter that simply doesn't register on my give-a-fuck-ometer.
If you have a runaway train, you don't ignore ways of stopping it that risk scratching the trains paintwork.
The big elephant is to what degree - and it's a political judgement call - a de facto compulsory vaccination program would have on the take up of other vaccines, and to what extent it might cause disengagement with wider health programmes like maternity, child development etc... I don't know the answer to that: my suspicion is that it might see a greater, long term negative impact on health than the positive impact of higher vaccination rates for covid, but I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Yes agreed, and I think it's not just health outcomes tbh. There's definite scope for some sort of hard right QAnon type thing to come through here IMO and mandatory vaccination could easily give it a big push. Although equally I don't think pandering to them is necessarily going to help either.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Easy to say that if you're confident you won't be part of the collateral damage! Also, I feel like your last paragraph there is a bit of a contradiction to the first half of your post.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Not really - I'm not greatly fussed about short term issues or inconveniences, so I'm happy to brush them off. big, long term ones that might get baked into society however are a different matter.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
See, I have a level of sympathy for that, but I would say that the hostile environment and the concentration of power in the hands of unaccountable tech companies are already big, long term issues baked into society, and I think like the points I mentioned are linked in with those?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I think tbh they need to be dealt with much more forcefully on a number of fronts. Could probably go in a few threads, but there's a good little article here on countering anti-vaccine stuff more aggressively COVID vaccines: time to confront anti-vax aggression
And if it was dealt with better and more pro-actively then vaccine mandates and passes might be unnecessary.
8ball
AV REFUGEES WELCOME
It's a bit light on describing actual methods.
BigMoaner
We will all go together
i'd force them to tak 6 ees and then on teh come down get them to do the hard level of suduko before entrance to all sporting events etc.
8ball
AV REFUGEES WELCOME
why don't we just build some extra hospitals so those who don't want the vacinne can fill them up by dying, and the rest of us get on with our lives?
Covid-19: Hospital ITU at capacity with mainly unvaccinated patients
Doctors are pleading for people in Gloucestershire to have the jab to help alleviate the pressure.www.bbc.co.uk
What happened to those big facilities we mothballed?
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Do you reckon there's a kind of vicious circle effect where people have to over-sell vaccines to an extent to try and counteract the damage that's done by anti-vax stuff, and the over-selling then leads to holes that anti-vaxxers can exploit? Over the last week or so, various of my housemates have come out with stuff along the lines of "they said that having the vaccine would mean I/you could do [xyz] and now we can't, so I can't see what the point is". I have tried being firm on the line that vaccination leading to reduced transmission and hospitalisation is worth it, even if it doesn't allow you to do international travel during a pandemic without having a test or whatever, but do reckon some of the way the vaccine was sold was unhelpful on this score.
Although I am also open to the argument that that's nothing to do with the anti-vaxxers and all just cos of neoliberalism or whatever.
Although I am also open to the argument that that's nothing to do with the anti-vaxxers and all just cos of neoliberalism or whatever.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Being used as Escape Rooms for Xmas parties.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
This is what happens when you try to convince people through argument. Less risky (and quicker) to just bring in mandates IMO
BigMoaner
We will all go together
"Research shows that the vaccines remain highly effective in preventing hospitalisation with Covid. At the end of August 2021, the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) gave a consensus view on the effectiveness of the Covid vaccines against severe disease, saying: “For hospitalisation, with both the AstraZeneca and Pfizer vaccines, protection is ~80% after one dose and ~95% after the second dose.”
fullfact.org
no matter the argument about mandatory or not, what to do? what to do with people who fill up, or have hte potential to fill up, hospitals because of their decision (often for medical reasons etc) to not have it?
hopefully it won't get even worse, but there could be some really difficult choices ahead? make it mandatory? build special unvaxxed hospitals?
i am sure the unvaxxed logic will be - why refuse me, and not a smoker etc. but smokers have not tipped the balance, the current infrastructure has allowed for them.
maybe we just have to make allowances for them?
Most people admitted to hospital with Covid-19 are vaccinated - Full Fact
The vaccines are not perfect, and the vast majority of vulnerable people have been vaccinated, so the small proportion who get seriously ill still amount to a…
fullfact.org
no matter the argument about mandatory or not, what to do? what to do with people who fill up, or have hte potential to fill up, hospitals because of their decision (often for medical reasons etc) to not have it?
hopefully it won't get even worse, but there could be some really difficult choices ahead? make it mandatory? build special unvaxxed hospitals?
i am sure the unvaxxed logic will be - why refuse me, and not a smoker etc. but smokers have not tipped the balance, the current infrastructure has allowed for them.
maybe we just have to make allowances for them?
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