Should the Covid vaccine be mandatory?

[elbows]

The vaccine doesn't guarantee you won't catch the Cov2 virus, but it helps a lot (I'm thinking of the REACT study in particular).

Yes as someone who mentions the much less than 100% protection current vaccines offer against the current strain in that regard, I should point out that its still way more protection against infection than no vaccine at all.

For example this is the sort of table the expert bodies use as part of their consensus on vaccine effectiveness. Its probably going to come out rather large so I'll put it behind spoiler tags.

The source of this table is a SAGE document from October which also contains some other tables and explanations: https://assets.publishing.service.g...4/S1411_VEEP_Vaccine_Effectiveness_Table_.pdf

At the time of writing it is still mostly lacking transmission reduction estimates for Delta, but does include estimates for protection against infection.

Spoiler

 

[campanula]

No I fucking don't. (think the vaccine should be mandatory). We are where we are because we have had 40 years of neo-liberal bleating about individual rights, de-regulation, diminishment of collective responsibilities and the idea of accountabilitiy becoming a laughable frippery, easily dismissed for those with power. Pushing an authoritarian stance, even in the name of public safety, is the worst possible solution and leads to even greater surveillance and control. Opens the door to all sorts of exploitative behaviour....including with-holding medical treatment for anyone who fails to follow state-mandated behaviours (such as smoking) and yet another divisive tool in the neo-liberal playbook.
The whole shitty edifice, including imaginary freedoms of being maskless is the inevitable result of social engineering which was enthusiastically grasped by Thatcher/free market libertarians...in order to dismantle cohesion and solidarity (quelling the unruly mob) while propitiating public unrest with sacrificial finger-pointing (the poor, immigrants, the 'other'). Fuck that! If we were all onboard with a different interpretation involving communal responsibilities (socialism), we would not be having this conversation regarding the extreme selfishness of individuals unable to look further than their own immediate and sovereign 'rights'.

 

[kalidarkone]

I have voted no to mandatory vaccines. But I do think there should be mandatory testing for all NHS and care staff.

I think we are now in a situation within the NHS where patients are at risk of dying or long term health complications either because of staff bringing covid into health care settings or because there is no longer enough staff to care for patients so people will just die because of that- see current issues with ambulance delays due to shortage of staff and patient volume.

Ambulance response times double as patients die waiting for paramedics

Ambulance trusts see spike in deaths as flood of 999 calls and hospital delays hit response times

www.independent.co.uk

In my department- (post op recovery and daycase surgery) currently we are only operating on people likely to be able to go home the same day as there are no beds.

I've never worked within such huge staff shortages before and patients are being cancelled left right and centre and staff are going off sick with stress and exhaustion- especially the newly qualified.

So to sum up.....more people are dying /going to die because the NHS is soo fucked and mandatory vaccines will exacerbate this in my opinion.

 

[Shechemite]

 

[ice-is-forming]

So it's about to become mandatory here in Qld, it's already mandated in all the other states for practically every work sector. And there are consequences for not being vaccinated around where you can go and what you can do, after Dec 17th when we open the border to other states.

My friend has heart issues, and even though her specialist has told her she should get the AZ vaccination for her own protection, along with a lot of other Queenslanders she's become very defiant and is saying no as a reaction to the mandate. We've had just over 2000 cases in Qld , the majority of those in quarantine from overseas arrivals, and 7 deaths since March 2020. So it's very different from whats happening in Europe.

Tbh I disagree with it being mandated, particularly as it's now causing the exact division and erosion of liberty and rights that campanula describes above. But here we are.

She either has it or looses her job. Or worse she would probably die when she catches it. She's just sent me a 3 hour YouTube thing she's watching to inform her decision making, she's scared of the side effects. To be fair our manager at work is very antivax and has been doing a subtle number on our team from the start.
Has anyone got anything I can send to her which may quell her fears please? Obviously there's a lot of information on urban and I can't pick it all apart atm.

This is what she's watching

 

[William of Walworth]

I wouldn't mind seeing how much, or not, Urbans agree with Frances Ryan's recent Guardian article.

She argues, pretty clearly and convincingly IMO, that the rights of NHS patients are just as important, if not more so, than those of vaccine-'hesitant' staff.

(Invertant commas deliberate, just there!! ).

Also! :

Frontline workers cannot expect to remain unvaccinated in a pandemic and to keep working with vulnerable people

 

[8ball]

I wouldn't mind seeing how much, or not, Urbans agree with Frances Ryan's recent Guardian article.

She argues, pretty clearly and convincingly IMO, that the rights of NHS patients are just as important, if not more so, than those of vaccine-'hesitant' staff.

(Invertant commas deliberate, just there!! ).

Also! :

Well, it’s exactly what I was saying earlier, so not much surprise to hear no argument from me.

 

[_Russ_]

I'm in agreement also, if you wont get vaccinated, go get a job where you're not pretending to be a caring person.
If you can't get vaccinated for some valid reason, sorry but some medical conditions preclude people from certain jobs its not prejudice its practicality. The belief that everyone is entitled to everything and fuck the greater good is a bastard result of the woke culture

 

[MickiQ]

Well I've always been solidly in favour of the "It's the Jab or the Boot" approach. All in favour of persuasion first but if it doesn't work then it's coercion. Talk of staff shortages is whataboutery, there isn't a staff shortage because of the vaccination, there's one because they're not paid enough. Even more in favour of them being paid more but it is a separate issue.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The province of Upper Austria is about to place all unvaxxed folk in to lockdown, they will only be allowed to leave home for work. food shopping and exercise. Quite how this could be policed is a mystery.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I'm in agreement also, if you wont get vaccinated, go get a job where you're not pretending to be a caring person.
If you can't get vaccinated for some valid reason, sorry but some medical conditions preclude people from certain jobs its not prejudice its practicality. The belief that everyone is entitled to everything and fuck the greater good is a bastard result of the woke culture

The 'woke culture' and not decades of neoliberalism then?

 

[Sasaferrato]

I wouldn't mind seeing how much, or not, Urbans agree with Frances Ryan's recent Guardian article.

She argues, pretty clearly and convincingly IMO, that the rights of NHS patients are just as important, if not more so, than those of vaccine-'hesitant' staff.

(Invertant commas deliberate, just there!! ).

Also! :

I read the article, and was quite astonished. It is at odds with her usual take on things.

She is very vulnerable though, and as someone who is also a tad vulnerable, can see her point.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Seen On a list of everyone who must be vaccinated

 

[8ball]

Seen On a list of everyone who must be vaccinatedView attachment 296810

Good, I need to see a few of those again in a month’s time.

 

[Shechemite]

. It is at odds with her usual take on things.

Is it?

 

[_Russ_]

The 'woke culture' and not decades of neoliberalism then?

You have Neo Liberalism all wrong, it way too far up its own opinions and much too dependent on Capitalism to foster a culture of everything for everybody

 

[Sasaferrato]

Is it?

Yes, she is usually not in favour of compulsion.

 

[Shechemite]

Well her article is about being vaccines being mandatory for health and care staff, not some vague point about ‘compulsion’.

Where has she argued against mandatory vaccines for H&sc staff?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Well her article is about being vaccines being mandatory for health and care staff, not some vague point about ‘compulsion’.

Where has she argued against mandatory vaccines for H&sc staff?

She is arguing exactly the opposite. Her position is that staff require to be vaccinated in order to protect the vulnerable patients that they interact with.

Is there a difference between compulsory and mandatory in this case?

 

[Shechemite]

. Her position is that staff require to be vaccinated in order to protect the vulnerable patients that they interact with.

And where has she argued that staff shouldn’t be required to be vaccinated to protect patients?

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm in agreement also, if you wont get vaccinated, go get a job where you're not pretending to be a caring person.
If you can't get vaccinated for some valid reason, sorry but some medical conditions preclude people from certain jobs its not prejudice its practicality. The belief that everyone is entitled to everything and fuck the greater good is a bastard result of the woke culture

You use that word a lot. What does "woke" mean to you?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You use that word a lot. What does "woke" mean to you?

In this context I think he means snivelling little shits sqweeming fweedom over the wider public health emergency placing individualism over community. So not something to get triggered over.

 

[krtek a houby]

Ah, grand. Nothing to with actual "woke" and being aware of current and historical racism and injustice.

Just making sure. There's been a few spanners and the like, of late.

 

[_Russ_]

In this context I think he means snivelling little shits sqweeming fweedom over the wider public health emergency placing individualism over community. So not something to get triggered over.

That would be the ones, same confused souls you see at BLM rallies not because they understand racism or freedom. I think there might be a few in here

 

[krtek a houby]

That would be the ones, same confused souls you see at BLM rallies not because they understand racism or freedom. I think there might be a few in here

Exactly the same, you say?

 

[krtek a houby]

_Russ_

Well, it's reassuring to know that you understand racism and freedom.


More than "a few in here", at any rate. Right?

 

[Sasaferrato]

And where has she argued that staff shouldn’t be required to be vaccinated to protect patients?

She hasn't, absolutely the opposite.

 

[equationgirl]

That would be the ones, same confused souls you see at BLM rallies not because they understand racism or freedom. I think there might be a few in here

Do you understand racism and BLM? Because your post says otherwise.

 

[Shechemite]

She hasn't, absolutely the opposite.

Quite, she’s repeatedly made her views clear that you don’t have a right refuse the vaccine and work with vulnerable people

 

[Sasaferrato]

Quite, she’s repeatedly made her views clear that you don’t have a right refuse the vaccine and work with vulnerable people

Which is what I've been saying from the start. I'm not sure what point you are making.