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Secular Buddhism

bimble said:
It's just a story, a way of communicating an idea, like a metaphor. And thats why you cant spoil it, whether it happened or not isn't the point.
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Maybe it's to test the state of enlightenment of the student.

Level 1: Why bother about that?
Level 2: My, what a sweet bit of consideration.
Level 3: Why didn't you get her a few of those timers from Wilko's?
 
Not sure why you're trying to ruin it for bimble. Its a perfectly good way of bringing to life an idea about greater awareness and connection in an ordinary every day way.
 
The scouse monk this morning, the other bit I liked is when he said that that the buddhism is his day to day life but the closest thing he has to a religion is football (as in he identified football not jesus as the ritual and belief system of his own culture).
Said he still participates in that fully when he's visiting his family and everyone just politely ignores the robes.
Thats the thing, 'belief' is irrelevant to practice, but not to religion, which is a different fish entirely.
 
Red Cat said:
Not sure why you're trying to ruin it for bimble. Its a perfectly good way of bringing to life an idea about greater awareness and connection in an ordinary every day way.
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I guess I'll keep schtum about some possibly upsetting news I have about Father Christmas.
 
JimW said:
There's absolutely nothing unlikely in the story at all, have you never met a nice person?
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Never met one that could deliver presents to every child in the world in one night.

I think the thread needs some trigger warnings at this point..
 
Here's a thing i'm grappling with bear with me and advise o buddhists & critical thinkers alike:

I live down a rural track and when its bin day me and my next door neighbours have to drag our bins up the hill to the road, cos the big bin van can't come down to us.

Until me and the neighbours had a falling out in summer 2020 (its civil but its weird between us) we would always roll the other one's empty bin down after the binmen came; whoever went up the lane first would roll both down.
But since the falling out they stopped and I haven't, so for a year and a half every time i take my empty bin down to mine I've been taking theirs too and parking it at their house and they've not once ever done the same for me, they just roll their bin down and leave mine up there for me to retrieve.

So at this point, when i'm doing this, its not a kindness its become a sort of passive aggressive 'look at me and notice that i am being kind in spite of the fact that you're not you twats' thing.
So, should I stop doing it now, and just behave like they do, because my motivation has become bad now and my thoughts whilst i'm doing it are not at all loving or generous, or should I carry on, because the action matters not the thoughts.
 
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8ball said:
:D

I see I have brought this thread to someone who needs it.

You are welcome, young Padawan.
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Not at all, it's a description of your behaviour. It's actually you, with your delusions of critical thinking when you're just being a contrarian arse that could perhaps do with reading it back a couple of times.
 
JimW said:
Not at all, it's a description of your behaviour. It's actually you, with your delusions of critical thinking when you're just being a contrarian arse that could perhaps do with reading it back a couple of times.
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Breathe. And pause. Then breathe again.
 
bimble said:
Here's a thing i'm grappling with bear with me and advise o buddhists & critical thinkers alike:

I live down a rural track and when its bin day me and my next door neighbours have to drag our bins up the hill to the road, cos the big bin van can't come down to us.

Until me and the neighbours had a falling out in summer 2020 (its civil but its weird between us) we would always roll the other one's empty bin down after the binmen came, , whoever went up the lane first would roll both down.
But since the falling out they stopped and I haven't, so for a year and a half every time i take my empty bin down to mine I've been taking theirs too and parking it at their house and they've not once ever done the same for me, they just roll their bin down and leave mine up there.

So at this point, when i'm doing this, its not a kindness its become a sort of passive aggressive 'look at me and notice that i am being kind and you're not you twats' thing.
So, should I stop doing it now, and just behave like they do, because my motivation has become bad now and my thoughts whilst i'm doing it are not at all loving or generous, or should I carry on, because the action matters not the thoughts.
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Start doing it randomly rather than reliably.

Then, once in a while, roll their full bin up the hill if it’s not too heavy.

Then, just now and then, roll their full bin back down to in front of their house before the collection so their rubbish doesn’t get collected that week.

They should be confused enough after a few months of this to speak to you about burying the hatchet.
 
bimble said:
Here's a thing i'm grappling with bear with me and advise o buddhists & critical thinkers alike:

I live down a rural track and when its bin day me and my next door neighbours have to drag our bins up the hill to the road, cos the big bin van can't come down to us.

Until me and the neighbours had a falling out in summer 2020 (its civil but its weird between us) we would always roll the other one's empty bin down after the binmen came; whoever went up the lane first would roll both down.
But since the falling out they stopped and I haven't, so for a year and a half every time i take my empty bin down to mine I've been taking theirs too and parking it at their house and they've not once ever done the same for me, they just roll their bin down and leave mine up there for me to retrieve.

So at this point, when i'm doing this, its not a kindness its become a sort of passive aggressive 'look at me and notice that i am being kind in spite of the fact that you're not you twats' thing.
So, should I stop doing it now, and just behave like they do, because my motivation has become bad now and my thoughts whilst i'm doing it are not at all loving or generous, or should I carry on, because the action matters not the thoughts.
Click to expand...
I think the advice of Thich Nhat Hahn would have been, raise it with them. Tell them how it makes you feel. Do so respectfully and with temperate language, and in writing if you think you would become angry face to face.

But I think personally I’d just stop.
 
8ball said:
Start doing it randomly rather than reliably.

Then, once in a while, roll their full bin up the hill if it’s not too heavy.

Then, just now and then, roll their full bin back down to in front of their house before the collection so their rubbish doesn’t get collected that week.

They should be confused enough after a few months of this to speak to you about burying the hatchet.
Click to expand...
No hatchet to bury, I think we've just mutually lost respect for each other or at least thats what i feel.
But after a year and a half my 'kindness' has definitely become something else, i think my consistency must already be perturbing in itself. Like every time they see that i've done this for them I bet it feels mildly unpleasant now.
 
danny la rouge said:
I think the advice of Thich Nhat Hahn would have been, raise it with them. Tell them how it makes you feel. Do so respectfully and with temperate language, and in writing if you think you would become angry face to face.

But I think personally I’d just stop.
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Oh god no, definitely not talking about The Bins with them. Which probably means I need to stop cos i'm being weird.
 
bimble said:
No hatchet to bury, I think we've just mutually lost respect for each other or at least thats what i feel.
But after a year and a half my 'kindness' has definitely become something else, i think my consistency might already be perturbing in itself.
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Danny’s advice is probably the wisest here. You know your motivation has changed and that the action doesn’t mean to you what it did before, so it’s either a case of bringing it up with them or stopping.

I think my advice is more fun, though, and gives the neighbours the chance to take the initiative without explicit moral pressure, allowing them to live in their head as the “bigger person”.
 
In judaism you have a hierarchy of 'mitzvot', good deeds, where the highest level is when the kindness you're doing is secret & anonymous so nobody will ever know it was you. I should stop doing the bins and think of something better. Doing a nice thing for people you don't much like but can feel compassion for is a good practice i think, in principle.
 
bimble said:
It's just a story, a way of communicating an idea, like a metaphor. And thats why you cant spoil it, whether it happened or not isn't the point.
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And that idea doesn't have much to do with Buddhism rather than general human compassion, something that was around a long time before Buddhism and a long time after. And the loving kindness sutras make me shudder. Take them to heart ands it's just a recipe for guilt and conflict. Most human beings want to act well, Buddhism or not. This is why Nagurjuna was so pivotal and seen as probably the greatest thinker in it's history: chuck it all out. Even "nothingness", it's all a trap. Buddhism is one of the few religions where it's actually encouraged to negate it rather than affirm it in many schools.
 
bimble said:
In judaism you have a hierarchy of 'mitzvot', good deeds, where the highest level is when the kindness you're doing is secret & anonymous so nobody will ever know it was you. I should stop doing the bins and think of something better. Doing a nice thing for people you don't much like but can feel compassion for is a good practice i think, in principle.
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There could be space here for doing something kind and anonymous for your neighbour and hoying their bin in the hedge.
 
bimble said:
And if it is, its still a good story. Most of the stories buddhists tell are located two thousand years ago and involve bon mots spoken by mythical beasts so, I'm going to say it fine, it did its job.
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Most of the stories Buddhist tell make you feel that there's still someway to go, that what is happening is not enough, that somehow one must improve. That they have something that we don't. The treadmill of satsung and meditation, on and on, never quite get there. But it's here now! They tell us that but the problem is it's the self listening and thinks it has to do a load of shit to achieve it.
 
BigMoaner said:
Most of the stories Buddhist tell make you feel that there's still someway to go, that what is happening is not enough, that somehow one must improve. That they have something that we don't. The treadmill of satsung and meditation, on and on, never quite get there. But it's here now! They tell us that but the problem is it's the self listening and thinks it has to do a load of shit to achieve it.
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This post makes me feel a bit sad. Its ok to want to do better isn't it? Thats not a problem.
I get the impression you're waiting for 'enlightenment' to unfurl and be a sort of end to all striving which tbh i think is a misunderstanding and not a helpful way to go about things. But not something to chat about on a message board really.
 
Buddha: there Is no self.

So long as their is the misconception of the self, then that self will do all it can to get out of itself, so you have a thing that doesn't exist trying to get out of a thing that doesn't exist.
bimble said:
Here's a thing i'm grappling with bear with me and advise o buddhists & critical thinkers alike:

I live down a rural track and when its bin day me and my next door neighbours have to drag our bins up the hill to the road, cos the big bin van can't come down to us.

Until me and the neighbours had a falling out in summer 2020 (its civil but its weird between us) we would always roll the other one's empty bin down after the binmen came; whoever went up the lane first would roll both down.
But since the falling out they stopped and I haven't, so for a year and a half every time i take my empty bin down to mine I've been taking theirs too and parking it at their house and they've not once ever done the same for me, they just roll their bin down and leave mine up there for me to retrieve.

So at this point, when i'm doing this, its not a kindness its become a sort of passive aggressive 'look at me and notice that i am being kind in spite of the fact that you're not you twats' thing.
So, should I stop doing it now, and just behave like they do, because my motivation has become bad now and my thoughts whilst i'm doing it are not at all loving or generous, or should I carry on, because the action matters not the thoughts.
Click to expand...
Stop taking the bin.

You want to be loving and above it? Why? To see yourself as better? What is the thing inside you that can be made better. Try and find it!

Youre an asshole like the rest of us. Accept it! Desiring to be a better person? Someone said something about desire, can't remember who it was :)

Buddhism in my view is not about "being better" but accepting that we are not better, that for all that is good in me, there's a matching darkness, always, that's how they both exist, accepting that which paradoxically frees up a bit more space to be better. Onky a little though. There's no curative fantasy.
 
bimble said:
This post makes me feel a bit sad. Its ok to want to do better isn't it? Thats not a problem.
I get the impression you're waiting for 'enlightenment' to unfurl and be a sort of end to all striving which tbh i think is a misunderstanding and not a helpful way to go about things. But not something to chat about on a message board really.
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It's the opposite of sad for me. It's the great relieft. At last the serpent stops eatings tail. The serpent is then free up to do other shit like watch endless mafia interview videos on YouTube.
 
bimble said:
No hatchet to bury, I think we've just mutually lost respect for each other or at least thats what i feel.
But after a year and a half my 'kindness' has definitely become something else, i think my consistency must already be perturbing in itself. Like every time they see that i've done this for them I bet it feels mildly unpleasant now.
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Is this the same neighbour who had that poor dog?

In that case, as moving their bin doesn't cost you any effort and might make them feel bad about themselves, then fuck them and keep doing it.
 
A380 said:
Is this the same neighbour who had that poor dog?

In that case, as moving their bin doesn't cost you any effort and might make them feel bad about themselves, then fuck them and keep doing it.
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Yes this too for sure
 
bimble said:
Thats exactly it, i've been doing an extremely passive act of aggression once a week for a year and a half, in the name of Lenny the dog. I'm gonna stop it.
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You must do what is right for you.

But I'd like you to continue making them feel slightly bad. But then I'm not a very nice person.
 
bimble said:
Thats exactly it, i've been doing an extremely passive act of aggression once a week for a year and a half, in the name of Lenny the dog. I'm gonna stop it.
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It's so the sort of thing I would do and have the corresponding confkict. Fist bump. There's prob no right or wrong approach what ever u choose
 
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