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A little rant, because I've been doing some mindfulness stuff lately, much of it Buddhism-derived but made by and for Westerners. All the mediations assume that you can treat your suffering or pain as a 'passing' thing, and that it can just go up and down according to conditions in your mind. There's very little awareness (I think because of the people who make them) of working with economic/material conditions. If you are in a tight spot economically, such that everyday stresses of low-paid work are a constant, or a serious decline in your economic or living conditions seems to be on the horizon, I do not think many of the meditations address that very well. If you're about to lose your housing, there's a more limited degree to which you can address that in your head (compared to, say, being upset about a relationship). When you open your eyes after the meditation there's still the knowledge that you are under threat that may have mental and physical effects no matter how you manage it in your mind. As I say, I fear that most of the meditations are made by and for relatively privileged people. I don't know how these matters are addressed in Buddhist cultures.

I remember some Buddhisty comedian on the BBC a while back and he had some long piece about how he was overcharged for a bill and it upset his peace of mind, but how he just adjusted his mental state and the problem went away. It literally didn't seem to occur to him that some people when overcharged for a bill might not be able to eat. That's the kind of thing that bugs me.
 
Brainaddict said:
A little rant, because I've been doing some mindfulness stuff lately, much of it Buddhism-derived but made by and for Westerners. All the mediations assume that you can treat your suffering or pain as a 'passing' thing, and that it can just go up and down according to conditions in your mind. There's very little awareness (I think because of the people who make them) of working with economic/material conditions. If you are in a tight spot economically, such that everyday stresses of low-paid work are a constant, or a serious decline in your economic or living conditions seems to be on the horizon, I do not think many of the meditations address that very well. If you're about to lose your housing, there's a more limited degree to which you can address that in your head (compared to, say, being upset about a relationship). When you open your eyes after the meditation there's still the knowledge that you are under threat that may have mental and physical effects no matter how you manage it in your mind. As I say, I fear that most of the meditations are made by and for relatively privileged people. I don't know how these matters are addressed in Buddhist cultures.

I remember some Buddhisty comedian on the BBC a while back and he had some long piece about how he was overcharged for a bill and it upset his peace of mind, but how he just adjusted his mental state and the problem went away. It literally didn't seem to occur to him that some people when overcharged for a bill might not be able to eat. That's the kind of thing that bugs me.
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Yes, I agree.
 
With Buddhism/New Age stuff I think it's best to cherry pick what's useful to you. I find meditation helpful in stressful situations - it doesn't solve anything but makes me calmer and therefore better at dealing with a problem. The ideology around meditation/mindfulness is not very helpful though, it's full of silly rules like "live in the present moment" and "don't judge people" and "don't get angry." There's a kernel of truth in some of this but life is way too complicated for one size fits all and every situation type rules.
 
Brainaddict said:
A little rant, because I've been doing some mindfulness stuff lately, much of it Buddhism-derived but made by and for Westerners. All the mediations assume that you can treat your suffering or pain as a 'passing' thing, and that it can just go up and down according to conditions in your mind. There's very little awareness (I think because of the people who make them) of working with economic/material conditions. If you are in a tight spot economically, such that everyday stresses of low-paid work are a constant, or a serious decline in your economic or living conditions seems to be on the horizon, I do not think many of the meditations address that very well. If you're about to lose your housing, there's a more limited degree to which you can address that in your head (compared to, say, being upset about a relationship). When you open your eyes after the meditation there's still the knowledge that you are under threat that may have mental and physical effects no matter how you manage it in your mind. As I say, I fear that most of the meditations are made by and for relatively privileged people. I don't know how these matters are addressed in Buddhist cultures.

I remember some Buddhisty comedian on the BBC a while back and he had some long piece about how he was overcharged for a bill and it upset his peace of mind, but how he just adjusted his mental state and the problem went away. It literally didn't seem to occur to him that some people when overcharged for a bill might not be able to eat. That's the kind of thing that bugs me.
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Yep, you're average mindfullness course is a lesson in how to be a good little capitalist subject, with techniques that are all internal.

Or how about the exploitative landlord who feels guilt for being a cunt, but just mindfully (mindlessly?) gets rid of all those negative feelings instead of not being a cunt.

Many would argue though that has nothign to do with the metaphysics of Buddhism, or more broadly "non duality". When you really get down to it, there's metaphysical and ontological foundations in Buddhism that really have little to do with "personal subjective suffering" but rather existance, time, "mind," causality. These things were talked about before Buddhism and are not exclusive to Buddhism.

But that's not to say that "mindfullness" doesn't have its benefits. It pays to taking steps outside the thoughtstream now and then. But what's that really got to do with Buddhism? Not much, many would argue.

My approach having been round this shit for years is - how do i want my life to plan out>? what are my true values? for some that might mean fixing society, doing charity work, etc, and you can use mindfull techniques to overcome things that block the achievement of such values - for things holding you back. but to use mindfullness as a way of "overcoming terrible feelings" is in my view a way of being chained to the technique forever and no way to live life anyway. you can't have the joy without the pain. all positivity all the time is a perfect description of boredom in my view. I can remember a zen practicer saying "She was mindful all day every day, in every moment". fuck that for a laugh. it's fun to get lost in the game.
 
the good thing about buddhism, and i am not sure if i would say mindfullness fits into this, is that it can turn on switches that don't turn off again. you can get permanant shifts that you can't undo, meditation or no meditation. i had to dig around for years for mine, but you do get certain insights that relieve a certain amount of suffering and give one a certain amount of strength.

but i am not sure these shifts are waht people want when they sign up for mindfull courses, apps. if they stick with it the stuff can some later. but a lot of negative stuff can come too, people get so attached to the "practice" that life can pass them by and tehy never actually get to where they want to anyway. it can be a hella waste of time if nto held lightly and played with instead of seeing it as a life and death. i have certainly been there with it.
 
BigMoaner said:
the good thing about buddhism, and i am not sure if i would say mindfullness fits into this, is that it can turn on switches that don't turn off again. you can get permanant shifts that you can't undo, meditation or no meditation. i had to dig around for years for mine, but you do get certain insights that relieve a certain amount of suffering and give one a certain amount of strength.

but i am not sure these shifts are waht people want when they sign up for mindfull courses, apps. if they stick with it the stuff can some later. but a lot of negative stuff can come too, people get so attached to the "practice" that life can pass them by and tehy never actually get to where they want to anyway. it can be a hella waste of time if nto held lightly and played with instead of seeing it as a life and death. i have certainly been there with it.
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Mindfulness for me is just paying attention to what's happening and how you react etc. without trying to come up with a explanation for everything, because all too often the explanation obscures the experience. And the mindfulness "teachers" always have an explanation for everything, which paradoxically shows how little they know.

Early on, when looking at Buddhism, I was struck by how the Buddhist has an answer to any and every question you ask (much like a Trotskyist:eek:), no matter how mysterious the question may be, because their wisdom is actually ideology dressed up as knowledge.

I spent a long time talking to many people from different "spiritual" traditions (including a couple of Peruvian shamans) about life, the universe and everything and came to the conclusion that as far as the big philosophical questions go, nobody actually knows anything. It's either speculation (which is sometimes interesting) or self-serving dogma.
 
Carl Steele said:
Mindfulness for me is just paying attention to what's happening and how you react etc. without trying to come up with a explanation for everything, because all too often the explanation obscures the experience. And the mindfulness "teachers" always have an explanation for everything, which paradoxically shows how little they know.

Early on, when looking at Buddhism, I was struck by how the Buddhist has an answer to any and every question you ask (much like a Trotskyist:eek:), no matter how mysterious the question may be, because their wisdom is actually ideology dressed up as knowledge.

I spent a long time talking to many people from different "spiritual" traditions (including a couple of Peruvian shamans) about life, the universe and everything and came to the conclusion that as far as the big philosophical questions go, nobody actually knows anything. It's either speculation (which is sometimes interesting) or self-serving dogma.
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Yes and for many the “not knowing” (big in Zen) is then dressed up as some grand secret knowledge. Only the truly awake don’t know yada yada
 
BigMoaner said:
Yes and for many the “not knowing” (big in Zen) is then dressed up as some grand secret knowledge. Only the truly awake don’t know yada yada
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I'd forgotten about this. "Not knowing is most intimate."

Here's something I wrote in a story - "wisdom is banality presented as certainty." The so-called teachers appropriate everyday knowledge and claim it belongs exclusively to them. "If you realise you don't know everything you'll be more open to new experiences." Why didn't I think of that?
 
i think with the "not knowing" it extends to ideas (more thought and words lol) that you don't really know what or who you are, or what anything actually is. but again that's not "spiritual" knowledge.

but then that's where the "experiential" angle comes in - experience yourself as the not knowing. and yes in my view that can be done for periods in meditation.

there's another Zen saying that recognises this - "Direct transmission, beyond words and teachings".

but it's ungraspable - but people try and live in that state by watching 10k videos on non duality or going for 4 year cave retreats. you will always in my view still return always to a sense of paying the bills, muddling through relationships, etc.


but this is all part of the human tapastry - it;s only spiritual if someone says it is.
 
BigMoaner said:
but then that's where the "experiential" angle comes in - experience yourself as the not knowing. and yes in my view that can be done for periods in meditation.
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I really struggle with the idea of defining experiences in meditation (or elsewhere). For example, I've had the experience of disappearing, everything fades to a black dot like an old TV screen going blank, and I seem to be sucked through, or out of existence. And then I come back, knowing somehow that I disappeared, although it makes no sense that I know this. I don't know what to do with this experience other than not to rationalise it away.

I could rephrase my earlier statement to say nobody understands anything. We can observe events etc. but no matter how much we observe we have no idea what's going on, or at least I never came across anyone who does, and I really looked.
 
Got given a book in English by the mum of one of my daughter's classmates as she's a Buddhist and knows I'm interested, it's by a Bhutanese monk, Dzongsar Khyentse (a tulku actually), and it's got a lot of good insights in it and he's refreshingly keen to avoid a religious or theistic interpretation of Buddhism. He mentions the Four Seals which are perhaps less well known than the Noble Truths but in fact more fundamental to the philosophy. Found a talk by him here which seems to be from the same stuff he put in the book: Buddhism in a Nutshell: The Four Seals of Dharma
Think especially that part about how all emotion is suffering, including love and so on, is particular anathema to the modern mind.
 
Carl Steele said:
I really struggle with the idea of defining experiences in meditation (or elsewhere). For example, I've had the experience of disappearing, everything fades to a black dot like an old TV screen going blank, and I seem to be sucked through, or out of existence. And then I come back, knowing somehow that I disappeared, although it makes no sense that I know this. I don't know what to do with this experience other than not to rationalise it away.

I could rephrase my earlier statement to say nobody understands anything. We can observe events etc. but no matter how much we observe we have no idea what's going on, or at least I never came across anyone who does, and I really looked.
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and you would need something there to experience the disappearing? so it can't be full disappearing? that would be death (if you believe in such thing as death - not sure I do, tbh).

like the idea of "no self" - well you'd need a self to experience no self. but people drag themselves round for years tyring to experience "no self".

i get exactly what you say - words are never enough. where "meditative" expriences can be useful is to contextualise them into ordinary every day subjectivity. I haven't taken my thoughts seriously for years, i have to say. there's nothing spiritual about that, it just comes from watching them come and go so often.

i will probably always do my 10mins a day meditation, fear of missing out maybe. but the idea of full and every lasting enlightenment to me now is one of mankinds cruelist tricks.
 
Okay, a second complaint about the guided meditations I've been doing recently. When dealing with thoughts that arise during meditation, the assumption is that the thought itself is not something you need indulge in - it is some anxiety or worry, or some useless feeling of shame or whatever. So you can just move away from the thought back to your focus and nothing will be lost, is the assumption. But the actual thoughts that tend to arise during my meditations are things that I have to make decisions about. I do, in fact, need to dedicate time to thinking about those things, in order to try to reach the best decision. So while I can steer away from the thought through focusing on the breath or whatever, they are thoughts that I will be required to come back to, I can't just put them aside. Or I can choose to just recognise that I'm thinking that during the meditation and let the thought go on, but it will take over the meditation because in any given decision there is a lot to think about. I don't really understand why all the guided meditations assume that whatever thoughts are arising, they are just superfluous burdens that can be shed. Don't we all have decisions that need to be made?
 
Brainaddict said:
Okay, a second complaint about the guided meditations I've been doing recently. When dealing with thoughts that arise during meditation, the assumption is that the thought itself is not something you need indulge in - it is some anxiety or worry, or some useless feeling of shame or whatever. So you can just move away from the thought back to your focus and nothing will be lost, is the assumption. But the actual thoughts that tend to arise during my meditations are things that I have to make decisions about. I do, in fact, need to dedicate time to thinking about those things, in order to try to reach the best decision. So while I can steer away from the thought through focusing on the breath or whatever, they are thoughts that I will be required to come back to, I can't just put them aside. Or I can choose to just recognise that I'm thinking that during the meditation and let the thought go on, but it will take over the meditation because in any given decision there is a lot to think about. I don't really understand why all the guided meditations assume that whatever thoughts are arising, they are just superfluous burdens that can be shed. Don't we all have decisions that need to be made?
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I've always struggled with guided meditations (in fact I don't do them anymore) and the notion of thoughts as a frowned-upon aspect of mental activity. You're right, some thoughts are useful/necessary and some are not. I've had some really interesting thoughts during meditation - such as how the binary functioning of a computer parallels our "true or false" way of relating to reality. Also if I see an image during meditation a thought will arise as a consequence of/reflection upon the image. Is this bad? I don't think so. In fact, it's impossible to avoid (without thinking, "I don't want this thought" :confused:)

Guided meditations promote particular forms of thinking (imagery plus ways of understanding reality) which I often find obstructive. So now I use chanting, or music, or silence as a way of letting the mind flow.
 
Carl Steele said:
With Buddhism/New Age stuff I think it's best to cherry pick what's useful to you. I find meditation helpful in stressful situations - it doesn't solve anything but makes me calmer and therefore better at dealing with a problem. The ideology around meditation/mindfulness is not very helpful though, it's full of silly rules like "live in the present moment" and "don't judge people" and "don't get angry." There's a kernel of truth in some of this but life is way too complicated for one size fits all and every situation type rules.
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It doesnt claim to cure anything in the objective world, but to help keep a healthy and peaceful mind.
I have used Buddhism and mindfulness for decades. I say that it is highly valid in the present world. It is a way of conducting oneself to try to stop suffering.
 
Brainaddict said:
Okay, a second complaint about the guided meditations I've been doing recently. When dealing with thoughts that arise during meditation, the assumption is that the thought itself is not something you need indulge in - it is some anxiety or worry, or some useless feeling of shame or whatever. So you can just move away from the thought back to your focus and nothing will be lost, is the assumption. But the actual thoughts that tend to arise during my meditations are things that I have to make decisions about. I do, in fact, need to dedicate time to thinking about those things, in order to try to reach the best decision. So while I can steer away from the thought through focusing on the breath or whatever, they are thoughts that I will be required to come back to, I can't just put them aside. Or I can choose to just recognise that I'm thinking that during the meditation and let the thought go on, but it will take over the meditation because in any given decision there is a lot to think about. I don't really understand why all the guided meditations assume that whatever thoughts are arising, they are just superfluous burdens that can be shed. Don't we all have decisions that need to be made?
Click to expand...

It's a difficult question to answer, or a complaint to rectify - but for me it hinges on what you want from meditation/mindfullness. There's a divorcing between "wanting to feel calmer" and "wanting to explore (very strange) Buddhist metaphysics." people normally sign up for the former, but are not interested (completly understable) in the later.

If it's the former - then just allow thoughts into awareness - don't try to fix them or change them or make them go away. You will eventually build up a sense that there's a watcher of thought, and the two are seperate (but they really are not) but this will allow you perspective, to have power where you once didn't, etc. The sense of an observer gets stronger and you ability to gain perspective on every-day problems will be become greater. You see through the word game of your own mind and your own subjectivity.

but this has little, in my view, to do with Buddhism! so if you're not interested in Buddhism, then I would perhaps just try and develop that.

To me Buddhist philosophical foundations actually have not much to do with meditation - although, the meditation can bring on experiential states that give a sense of embodying the methaphysical foundations of Buddhism. What is the watcher? Who is thinking? What is a thought? Where are thoughts come from - do we go to thought, or do they go to us? What is holding on, what is letting go, and is there a difference between the two? Is there a cause, is there an affect? Is this happening in time or outside of time? Is it happening by itself? What is the happening? Does my sense of self have to be tehre for it to happen? What is seeing/hearing, etc. Do you need a seer for seeing, a hearer for hearing? To me these questions of metaphysics are questions that lead to the divine ground, Being (with Heideggers capital B), the Buddhafield, Tathagata. All of course ununswarable but you can spend a fruitful life time expoloring, or perhaps getting somewhat closer to an answer, for all those questions and certainly getting rid of assumptionts that one had already about them. The mind states that one can get into are certainly not pointless. The perspectives you can get just by seeing the questions are not a waste of time. But it's "questions along teh path" and the path, for me at least, has been ardeous, up and down, never ending. It's a tough road and I am not sure how anyone sets out on it, but many do. EVen worse, I am not even sure of the point of walking it, but I do.

i've meditated daily for years and probably just as neurotic (see my anger, gripes, moans, escapades across teh forum for instance) as i was way back then, but i do hold in my heart certain unanswerable questions that can empty my mind in an instant, or to whipe out fear with almost no effort. but the midn and the human and emotiosn always return and roll on, pushing me on - but pondering these things can restructure things a little. i think understanding that and understanding that that understanding won't end the suffering is key for me. we're stuck here :D

"A sudden crash of thunder, the mind doors open! And there sits the ordinary old man". This Zen phrase I think is one of the best because it ties up immanance and transcendance. I think the goal of my spiritual path is too see, as the saying implies, that the two are the same. That there is only one life, this one, and to live it and enjoy it and perhaps chill the fuck out now and then.

I enjoy this thread, you're the only folk i really talk to about this stuff
 
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Good points BigMoaner about the two approaches - and given the thread title I probably shouldn't drag general meditation stuff onto this thread when you're right I don't have much interest in deeper Buddhist thought. I just do it cos there isn't another major meditation thread. They are linked I guess, but maybe there should also be another thread for questions I have like: would there actually be any difference in effect between me doing two structured meditations a day and sitting still doing nothing for 10 minutes twice a day?
 
Buddhism is important also that it helps one to learn to not to have any delusions, and also to accept impermanence.
 
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Brainaddict said:
Good points BigMoaner about the two approaches - and given the thread title I probably shouldn't drag general meditation stuff onto this thread when you're right I don't have much interest in deeper Buddhist thought. I just do it cos there isn't another major meditation thread. They are linked I guess, but maybe there should also be another thread for questions I have like: would there actually be any difference in effect between me doing two structured meditations a day and sitting still doing nothing for 10 minutes twice a day?
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brain - there's a zen style of meditation which i do (after givein up vispassana), and that is just sitting. similar to what you say. but, as i understand it (and how it "works" for me), it is literally "just sitting" so no movement of will other than to remain just sitting. and when the mind wanders, then the only movement is to go back to ompletly in the poise of just sitting. if the mind wanders, it wanders, if it goes quiet, which will it will some times, then it goes quiet, if it start up again, it starts up again. "still quiet mind is Zen, wandering restless mind is also Zen." with just sitting in one spot, you might start to see teh stories start up and fade away (bit like the breath, or the beating of hte heart). you can see how you get "caught up" in a story (although after a while this too has no negative or positive connetation (like it does in so much "spirituality".).

but no i don't think there is a great deal of difference between teh two. if you sit and don't meditate, well that might be valuable time processing or just thinking through stuff.
 
1MK54
 
Brainaddict said:
A little rant, because I've been doing some mindfulness stuff lately, much of it Buddhism-derived but made by and for Westerners. All the mediations assume that you can treat your suffering or pain as a 'passing' thing, and that it can just go up and down according to conditions in your mind. There's very little awareness (I think because of the people who make them) of working with economic/material conditions. If you are in a tight spot economically, such that everyday stresses of low-paid work are a constant, or a serious decline in your economic or living conditions seems to be on the horizon, I do not think many of the meditations address that very well. If you're about to lose your housing, there's a more limited degree to which you can address that in your head (compared to, say, being upset about a relationship). When you open your eyes after the meditation there's still the knowledge that you are under threat that may have mental and physical effects no matter how you manage it in your mind. As I say, I fear that most of the meditations are made by and for relatively privileged people. I don't know how these matters are addressed in Buddhist cultures.

I remember some Buddhisty comedian on the BBC a while back and he had some long piece about how he was overcharged for a bill and it upset his peace of mind, but how he just adjusted his mental state and the problem went away. It literally didn't seem to occur to him that some people when overcharged for a bill might not be able to eat. That's the kind of thing that bugs me.
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Yes to a degree - in fact you’ve also just described a lot of western psychological therapy, particularly positive psychology, CBT and psychodynamic. However, I would argue that the third wave CBTs that use more of these approaches (such as ACT, DBT, CFT etc) are more geared to helping people with more systemic challenges because they acknowledge that life can genuinely be crap, rather than you finding it crap because of a failure in you/your psyche. That’s why ACT is so great for people with chronic health conditions, DBT for people with complex trauma histories etc.

I’m sorry that’s a lot of acronyms, I’m quickly typing before the morning breakfast rush. But happy to come back and explain further.

I love ACT but my concern at the back of my head is how culturally appropriate it has been to take some of these ideas and twist them for a western audience…
 
Agent Sparrow said:
I love ACT but my concern at the back of my head is how culturally appropriate it has been to take some of these ideas and twist them for a western audience…
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In what way could a therapy that is shown to be beneficial for some people be considered 'culturally appropriate' or not? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
 
havent joined in on this thread, but just want to stick this here. the talks of a man called Rob Burbea, who died in 2020.
in the last couple of years before his death (he knew he was dying) he went off piste completely, far from the standard teachings of any kind of traditional buddhism. It won't be for everyone, at all, but i love listening to him, his brilliant generous omnivouous mind.
 
great quote i've been mulling over in zen.

dude goes up to the master and said waht is the true teaching of buddhism?

the master says "the clouds moving above do not need any teaching of the Buddha."

buddhism to negate buddhism. buddhism to get past buddhism. trapped forever until all of it including the buddha and the damn sutras are let go of entirely and the thing letting go is let go of enough until you realise you can't let go of the letting goer (elephants all the way down) and finally you arrive to exactly the place where you are now. i can't let go of myself, so therefore i don't even have to try to.
 
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