Roger Waters self indulgent twat / not self indulgent twat

[Orang Utan]

No, it isn't. The Geldof character in The Wall ends up in Naziesque costume as he disintegrates. It's been a long-standing theme with Waters. And it absolutely is not dubious. You can think it's shit if you like, but if you think it's dubious, you misunderstand it.

I'm not denying that Waters says dodgy shit. He's said a lot of nonsense recently about Putin and Russia. His politics are shit. But you are seeing dubiousness when it isn't there.

I told you to stop making stuff up about what I have said

 

[Orang Utan]

I think his musics mostly shit. But that’s not a reason to accept everything he’s accused of.

No but it certainly doesn’t encourage a charitable view of him and it’s part and parcel of his arrogant and delusional self-styled persona of a naughty boy dressing as a Nazi to mock fascism and thus bring it all down single-handedly and be worshipped by his adoring fans

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Certainly in the modern era. Back a decade or two things were different, 'The Past is another country' type kick?

Well Nazis made people wear them and painted it on doors iirc. Not good.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Also, and I can’t stress this highly enough:

Crimes against humanity.

I refuse to listen to this album.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I told you to stop making stuff up about what I have said

what the fuck are you on about. I directly quoted you

does dubious shit on stage that fuel these things, like dressing up in Naziesque costumes

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The whole point of the wall is a child going from A to B into a fascist. The merits of the art can be debated but a Nazi uniform in that context fits the art.

 

[redcogs]

And, Redcogs, its not about who is accusing him, its about what he actually says and does.

i cant get my head around this observation. Of course it matters who is making the critique. Their reasoning may be ideologically contaminated by many and various factors. Ask any Tory/Labour cabinet/shadow cabinet member if they believe any of their opponents utterences for example.

 

[Orang Utan]

what the fuck are you on about. I directly quoted you

Yes, and you conceded that it was dubious behaviour then told me it wasn’t. Make your mind up.

 

[Orang Utan]

i cant get my head around this observation. Of course it matters who is making the critique. Their reasoning may be ideologically contaminated by many and various factors. Ask any Tory/Labour cabinet/shadow cabinet member if they believe any of their opponents utterences for example.

What I find dodgy is not believing what Stachel said cos he said it about a bloke whose guitar playing you like

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Of course heaven forbid anyone holds Bowie to the same standards on here.

 

[Karl Masks]

Rewriting Dark Side of the Moon and turning it into a depressing self indulgent lounge disgrace is crime enough. the antisemitism is just a hideous bonus

 

[redcogs]

What I find dodgy is not believing what Stachel said cos he said it about a bloke whose guitar playing you like

Dodgy? i cant remember committing one way or another about Norbert Statchel. it seems to come down to one persons word against anothers, which aint enough to condemn or label anyone as racist for me. Being racist or anti semitic (both racist forms obviously) is serious and not to be taken lightly. i would be personally devastated if i were so accused. i assume most here would feel similar. Which is why i find it difficult to understand the push to find Waters guilty of racism. He may have a fuckwittedly clumsy in approach occasionally, but his personal politics seem fairly reasonable. i have certainly encountered many absolute racist scumbags, but is Waters in that category? i'm doubtful.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Rewriting Dark Side of the Moon and turning it into a depressing self indulgent lounge disgrace is crime enough. the antisemitism is just a hideous bonus

It just proves that he isn't close to half the act without the rest of them.

 

[danny la rouge]

one persons word against anothers

Several people’s words against his.

 

[Orang Utan]

Dodgy? i cant remember committing one way or another about Norbert Statchel. it seems to come down to one persons word against anothers, which aint enough to condemn or label anyone as racist for me. Being racist or anti semitic (both racist forms obviously) is serious and not to be taken lightly. i would be personally devastated if i were so accused. i assume most here would feel similar. Which is why i find it difficult to understand the push to find Waters guilty of racism. He may have a fuckwittedly clumsy in approach occasionally, but his personal politics seem fairly reasonable. i have certainly encountered many absolute racist scumbags, but is Waters in that category? i'm doubtful.

So a fellow band member detailing an egregious act of public racism on camera is not enough to convince you? Why don’t you believe him? It’s dodgy cos it’s akin to questioning the honesty and motives of similar whistleblowers in other scandals, such as the Me Too debacle.

 

[redcogs]

Several people’s words against his.

i dont doubt this, but i was challenged on the grounds of not believing one person Danny - Norbert.

 

[Wilf]

i dont doubt this, but i was challenged on the grounds of not believing one person Danny - Norbert.

Okay then, I'll challenge you on the grounds of not believing all of them.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

He hates fascism. He probably hates the Israeli state, as do most of us. There's clumsiness in it though. See the Corbyn witch hunts for evidence.
He certainly hasn't produced anti-semitic art in the way he has towards Nazis though. Anyway, not wanting to be an apologist. Fuck him if he is anti-semitic.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Why the fuck are people so desperate to label Roger Waters as racist? He has plenty failings doubtless (especially an overly stoked ego), maybe he has an inconsistent catalogue of work, perhaps he should have been kinder to the other Floyd members, and he is certainly guilty of 'earning' too much money out of celebrity and rockstar status. Possibly even his shit stinks vile. But why the clamor for him to be seen as an anti semitic racist prick? i cant see it. i can see that he needs to modify some of his art to take into account various cultural and historical twists and turns. But in so far as i can detect a central theme/message to his work it mainly relates to an anti establishment critique and a pacifist approach to warfare and an understanding that capitalism and religion are pretty much a disaster areas which do damage to society. Roger Waters aint a twat, and i still dont believe he is racist.

There’s not a clamour he is racist and people are calling it out. If he stops being racists the noise around it will disappear.

 

[redcogs]

So a fellow band member detailing an egregious act of public racism on camera is not enough to convince you? Why don’t you believe him? It’s dodgy cos it’s akin to questioning the honesty and motives of similar whistleblowers in other scandals, such as the Me Too debacle.

There is no obligation to believe every criticism being made of Waters, particularly when there is such a febrile atmosphere being constantly regenerated. i suspect there is no end to such undercurrents and circular arguments.. How sad is that? actually i'm beginning to regret my original light hearted post, which was simply to recount a part of 'a day in the life' i'm putting it down to the 'its only Urban' syndrome. How did we get from this -

"Learning guitar. i jam (very inadequately) each Monday morning with a few long suffering pals. we 'play' a variety of songs but nae Floyd. This last week a new geezer turns up to play bass guitar. He was keen to launch with 'Another Brick in the Wall'. This morning i thought i had better listen to the track so out came the vinyl and i listened to side one and two to refresh my memory. Profound stuff but absolutely not light listening. The strumming pattern for this song is flummoxing for me but i'll stick wi it til its reight. Those here who are sniffy about Floyd and Waters are plain prejudiced with a hefty dose of tinitus and wax which can be sucked out for money now that the NHS has stopped dealing with such matters".

to concerningly accusatory finger jabbing about being politically dodgy and plenty other pretty crap epithets. i'm off for a another whisky.

 

[Yossarian]

If the Star of David was on the same pig as symbols for Islam and Christianity, then he's doing a fuck you to all three main branches of Abrahamic religion. You saying performers shouldn't do that?

Did he put Islamic symbols on a pig?

 

[Wilf]

Fwiw, I don't think his antisemitism is anything like that of the far right. It comes out of an immature leftism, where a political enemy is reduced down to something cartoonish. Combined with that is a, ahem, pig headedness, his self importance and seeming unwillingness to listen. He's against totalitarianism, so that gives him carte blanche to wander round in Nazi 'style' uniforms. Maybe there was a point there but, y'know, time to stop. He doesn't. He's pro-Palestinian so he rants about Jews and 'Jew food', even in front of Jewish colleagues. I'm sure he does care about issues, but it's a closed system of rants and pomposity.

 

[Idris2002]

Describing veggie grub as "Jew food" is so utterly bizarre I can easily see a multi-millionaire rock star doing it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Did he put Islamic symbols on a pig?

According to the Jerusalem Post, yes.

 

[RD2003]

Because he’s hard to be charitable about. He doesn’t carry himself well. He’s arrogant, he’s crass and he’s just not a likeable person. And he says racist things and does dubious shit on stage that fuel these things, like dressing up in Naziesque costumes and employing empty sloganeering like Rik off of The Young Ones. A juvenile intellect, a monstrous ego and just an odious plank in all respects.
But apparently his impossible-to-fathom ‘talent’ and membership of one of the most overrated bands ever gets him a pass for all that.

I know nothing of PF's output after 'The Final Cut,' and nothing at all of Waters' solo stuff, but isn't the 'Naziesque costume' connected to the fascist-style rally conjured up (iirc) in the protagonist of 'The Wall's fevered imagination? If so, the sentiments expressed in that particular song were clearly meant to be derided.

 

[Wilf]

What's that I hear you all saying, 'what has George Galloway got to say about it'?

 

[Karl Masks]

It just proves that he isn't close to half the act without the rest of them.

Very much

 

[Orang Utan]

I know nothing of PF's output after 'The Final Cut,' and nothing at all of Waters' solo stuff, but isn't the 'Naziesque costume' connected to the fascist-style rally conjured up (iirc) in the protagonist of 'The Wall's fevered imagination? If so, the sentiments expressed in that particular song were clearly meant to be derided.

Fucking hell, Roger Waters fans are thick

 

[redcogs]

Maybe so but they tend not be quite as offensive as their opponents

 

[Orang Utan]

I’m talking about this very black and white blinkeredness that interprets me criticising Waters for his Nazi uniform stage antics means I think he was espousing their ideology. That’s some adolescent shite. Much like Waters’ politics and posturing