Roger Waters self indulgent twat / not self indulgent twat

[Orang Utan]

You'll love their version of Sgt. Peppers then.

But then you probably hated the original Sgt. Peppers because it doesn't have any mindless doof doof doof kick drum beats on it.

No. Just tediously overplayed

 

[redcogs]

He was a twat towards the rest of the group, with delusions of grandeur and, as it turns out, a complete scumbag politically.

Massive egos are not rare in music or politics. So how are we to judge people? and by which yardstick do we measure Waters' political interventions? Do we dismiss out of hand the work/politics of all egotistcal types? Much of Waters' early work established him as being generally on the left, which i rate as a good thing. i'm not sure what is meant by being a scumbag politically because its non specific? Perhaps you mean the war in Gaza? i am really not up to speed, but his more recent (perhaps clumsy?) statements regarding Israel/Palestine minefield dont seem preposterously unreasonable considering the hugely contentious sensitivities involved, and especially when compared to some of the absolutely vile denigrations being heaped upon people sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Is this the specific area that concerns you Wilf, i really dont know? Anyway, whatever is the case, i cant find myself refusing to draw any pleasure from the artistic creations of certain individuals simply because i hate their egotism (which i do) or their political orientations. Roger W aint a complete twat, but like most of us, he probably can be prone to the occasional bout of twatery. Some of his body of work will likely stand the test of time regardless.

 

[Wilf]

Massive egos are not rare in music or politics. So how are we to judge people? and by which yardstick do we measure Waters' political interventions? Do we dismiss out of hand the work/politics of all egotistcal types? Much of Waters' early work established him as being generally on the left, which i rate as a good thing. i'm not sure what is meant by being a scumbag politically because its non specific? Perhaps you mean the war in Gaza? i am really not up to speed, but his more recent (perhaps clumsy?) statements regarding Israel/Palestine minefield dont seem preposterously unreasonable considering the hugely contentious sensitivities involved, and especially when compared to some of the absolutely vile denigrations being heaped upon people sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Is this the specific area that concerns you Wilf, i really dont know? Anyway, whatever is the case, i cant find myself refusing to draw any pleasure from the artistic creations of certain individuals simply because i hate their egotism (which i do) or their political orientations. Roger W aint a complete twat, but like most of us, he probably can be prone to the occasional bout of twatery. Some of his body of work will likely stand the test of time regardless.

Well, I'm not getting into all that fine paring - I think he's a twat for the many and often discussed reasons. Even.... on this thread.
With regard to the issue of the moment, I detest what Israel is doing, I detest the Zionist project. But it's possible so say and believe all that without becoming explicitly antisemitic. Waters fails that test by a country mile.

 

[Wilf]

Well, I'm not getting into all that fine paring - I think he's a twat for the many and often discussed reasons. Even.... on this thread.
With regard to the issue of the moment, I detest what Israel is doing, I detest the Zionist project. But it's possible so say and believe all that without becoming explicitly antisemitic. Waters fails that test by a country mile.

Or, to put it another way...

View attachment 367033

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Massive egos are not rare in music or politics. So how are we to judge people? and by which yardstick do we measure Waters' political interventions? Do we dismiss out of hand the work/politics of all egotistcal types? Much of Waters' early work established him as being generally on the left, which i rate as a good thing. i'm not sure what is meant by being a scumbag politically because its non specific? Perhaps you mean the war in Gaza? i am really not up to speed, but his more recent (perhaps clumsy?) statements regarding Israel/Palestine minefield dont seem preposterously unreasonable considering the hugely contentious sensitivities involved, and especially when compared to some of the absolutely vile denigrations being heaped upon people sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Is this the specific area that concerns you Wilf, i really dont know? Anyway, whatever is the case, i cant find myself refusing to draw any pleasure from the artistic creations of certain individuals simply because i hate their egotism (which i do) or their political orientations. Roger W aint a complete twat, but like most of us, he probably can be prone to the occasional bout of twatery. Some of his body of work will likely stand the test of time regardless.

What yardstick? Simple: don’t be racist.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I must admit, although I know he’s a dick I’m not up to speed on the racism stuff. What did he say?

 

[Orang Utan]

I must admit, although I know he’s a dick I’m not up to speed on the racism stuff. What did he say?

Behold:

Roger Waters self indulgent twat / not self indulgent twat

Including Pink Floyd and his solo stuff, is Waters the magic that made Pink Floyd (apart from Syd Barrett, who was a demi-god) into what they were? Or just a self indulgent twat who could knock out the odd good song?

www.urban75.net

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Behold:

Roger Waters self indulgent twat / not self indulgent twat

Including Pink Floyd and his solo stuff, is Waters the magic that made Pink Floyd (apart from Syd Barrett, who was a demi-god) into what they were? Or just a self indulgent twat who could knock out the odd good song?

www.urban75.net

Would it not be easier to point out the accusation than rather than simply the beginning of this thread?

 

[Orang Utan]

Would it not be easier to point out the accusation than rather than simply the beginning of this thread?

It might be for you. But we all had to read the whole thread to find out, so you must suffer as well. It’s only fair.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It might be for you. But we all had to read the whole thread to find out, so you must suffer as well. It’s only fair.

I didn't realise the claims were only available on urban75 and had to be dug for. That's quite the scoop. In days of yore, if someone made a claim it was fairly reasonable to ask them to back it up. And the claim wasn't made by you so a weird intervention.
But as you're keen to be involved, you can help kid eternity out?

 

[Orang Utan]

I didn't realise the claims were only available on urban75 and had to be dug for. That's quite the scoop. In days of yore, if someone made a claim it was fairly reasonable to ask them to back it up. And the claim wasn't made by you so a weird intervention.
But as you're keen to be involved, you can help kid eternity out?

I’m not that keen on getting involved any further tbh.
I just found it an odd thing to ask when that’s what the thread’s about (mainly)

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m not that keen on getting involved any further tbh.
I just found it an odd thing to ask when that’s what the thread’s about (mainly)

OP mentions nothing about racism. Why jump in if you're not really interested?

 

[Orang Utan]

OP mentions nothing about racism. Why jump in if you're not really interested?

Cos I’m on the internet

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Cos I’m on the internet

Right. Well thanks for putting the effort into revealing nothing. Much appreciated.

 

[Orang Utan]

Right. Well thanks for putting the effort into revealing nothing. Much appreciated.

You’re welcome. Imagine what you could have done instead!

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You’re welcome. Imagine what you could have done instead!

You've delayed my sleep by about ten minutes. It gives you a good eight hours to think of what you really wanted to say.

 

[Orang Utan]

You've delayed my sleep by about ten minutes. It gives you a good eight hours to think of what you really wanted to say.

good morning

 

[Wilf]

For those with an aversion to the earlier pages of this thread:

Roger Waters accused of repeated antisemitism in new documentary

Investigation interviews those who claim to have heard several derogatory references to Jews

www.theguardian.com

 

[redcogs]

Thanks for the link Wilf, which i found interesting. However, because i'm inclined towards pedantry i did a quick Wiki on the Campaign Against Antisemitism (the organisation which has produced the referenced documentary). Obviously Wiki aint the last word on anything, but even so i couldn't help noticing this quote: "In August 2018, CAA organised a demonstration outside Labour Party's headquarters to protest against the handling of antisemitism in the Labour Party, and to condemn the-then party leader, Jeremy Corbyn". This leads me to believe that the CAA has quite a sharp political axe to grind, because i never believed Jeremy Corbyn to be anti semitic, or any other form of racist. Clearly the political nature of the CAA must be taken into account when making judgements about whether Waters is antisemitic or simply misguided, clumsy, or politically misjudged, or perhaps all three. But, in the end, and in recognition of the massively contentious minefield that has come to permeate Labour politics and the issue of 'anti zionism = antisemitic', i am healthily sceptical about Waters' alleged racism. When asked about his alleged racism by the Guardian he indicated (responding to previous allegations of antisemitism), Waters said: “I have spent my entire life speaking out against authoritarianism and oppression wherever I see it" . Obviously the Guardian aint the final arbiter of anything either, and who knows what may be revealed with the passing of time. But for the moment, Roger Waters aint a twat, and additionally, i would need more evidence (and preferably from a less partisan source) before i was prepared to regard him as racist.

 

[danny la rouge]

This, for example, is a stage prop from a Waters show:

View attachment 367050

That looks very much to me like a wider criticism than just of the Israeli state. The Star of David (it is not the Israeli flag he uses here, but the Star of David) is a symbol of Judaism. Blaming or holding responsible Jews in general is antisemitic. I have no problem with saying that the above is anti semitic.

Thanks for the link Wilf, which i found interesting. However, because i'm inclined towards pedantry i did a quick Wiki on the Campaign Against Antisemitism (the organisation which has produced the referenced documentary). Obviously Wiki aint the last word on anything, but even so i couldn't help noticing this quote: "In August 2018, CAA organised a demonstration outside Labour Party's headquarters to protest against the handling of antisemitism in the Labour Party, and to condemn the-then party leader, Jeremy Corbyn". This leads me to believe that the CAA has quite a sharp political axe to grind, because i never believed Jeremy Corbyn to be anti semitic, or any other form of racist. Clearly the political nature of the CAA must be taken into account when making judgements about whether Waters is antisemitic or simply misguided, clumsy, or politically misjudged, or perhaps all three. But, in the end, and in recognition of the massively contentious minefield that has come to permeate Labour politics and the issue of 'anti zionism = antisemitic', i am healthily sceptical about Waters' alleged racism. When asked about his alleged racism by the Guardian he indicated (responding to previous allegations of antisemitism), Waters said: “I have spent my entire life speaking out against authoritarianism and oppression wherever I see it" . Obviously the Guardian aint the final arbiter of anything either, and who knows what may be revealed with the passing of time. But for the moment, Roger Waters aint a twat, and additionally, i would need more evidence (and preferably from a less partisan source) before i was prepared to regard him as racist.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

This, for example, is a stage prop from a Waters show:

View attachment 367050

That looks very much to me like a wider criticism than just of the Israeli state. The Star of David (it is not the Israeli flag he uses here, but the Star of David) is a symbol of Judaism. Blaming or holding responsible Jews in general is antisemitic. I have no problem with saying that the above is anti semitic.

It must be pretty maddening for Jews that Zionists have adopted the Star of David as their own. As such, it IS a political symbol.

 

[danny la rouge]

It must be pretty maddening for Jews that Zionists have adopted the Star of David as their own. As such, it IS a political symbol.

If he’d used the Israeli flag, fair enough. But he didn’t.

 

[belboid]

If he’d used the Israeli flag, fair enough. But he didn’t.

but there were other examples of religious symbols on it. So it wasn't solely aimed solely at jews, it was any religious people.

 

[Yossarian]

but there were other examples of religious symbols on it.

Not seeing any in this photo, were there some on the other side?

 

[belboid]

Not seeing any in this photo, were there some on the other side?

View attachment 403527

we did go through all this upthread, when the image was originally posted.

I have misremembered slightly - the pig has various changing symbols on, including ones attacking other religions at times. This photo was supposedly from his latest tour, but wasn't. Waters is a prat, but not really an antisemitic one.
(see https://www.reuters.com/article/fac...ars-ago-featured-star-of-david-idUSL1N37X0TS/ for example)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not seeing any in this photo, were there some on the other side?

View attachment 403527

According to this article from The Jerusalem Post,

The crucifix, crescent and star, hammer and sickle, Shell Oil logo and McDonalds sign were also stamped on the pig.

Roger Waters defends use of pig and Star of David, denies he’s anti-Semitic


The pig's had various iterations. On one it had written 'all religions divide us'.

 

[Dystopiary]

Thanks for the link Wilf, which i found interesting. However, because i'm inclined towards pedantry i did a quick Wiki on the Campaign Against Antisemitism (the organisation which has produced the referenced documentary). Obviously Wiki aint the last word on anything, but even so i couldn't help noticing this quote: "In August 2018, CAA organised a demonstration outside Labour Party's headquarters to protest against the handling of antisemitism in the Labour Party, and to condemn the-then party leader, Jeremy Corbyn". This leads me to believe that the CAA has quite a sharp political axe to grind, because i never believed Jeremy Corbyn to be anti semitic, or any other form of racist. Clearly the political nature of the CAA must be taken into account when making judgements about whether Waters is antisemitic or simply misguided, clumsy, or politically misjudged, or perhaps all three. But, in the end, and in recognition of the massively contentious minefield that has come to permeate Labour politics and the issue of 'anti zionism = antisemitic', i am healthily sceptical about Waters' alleged racism. When asked about his alleged racism by the Guardian he indicated (responding to previous allegations of antisemitism), Waters said: “I have spent my entire life speaking out against authoritarianism and oppression wherever I see it" . Obviously the Guardian aint the final arbiter of anything either, and who knows what may be revealed with the passing of time. But for the moment, Roger Waters aint a twat, and additionally, i would need more evidence (and preferably from a less partisan source) before i was prepared to regard him as racist.

Orang Utan posted a link to this upthread:



Sorry, it's a tweet, but I'm not going looking for icky Glenn Greenwald videos on youtube.

As I said at the time:

Roger Waters referencing Grayzone and Max Blumenthal to Glenn Greenwald, it's shit takes bingo.

If you want to know about Max Blumenthal and the Grayzone, have a look here:

Grayzone, Grifters and the Cult of Tank

There'll be much better out there on pro-Kremlin and pro-Trump grifter Greenwald, but there's a bit about his dodginess here:

Glen Greenwald Promotes a Dangerous But Likable Version of Trump

(Unlike the the author, I don't believe GG is "spectacularly naive". )

You can tell a lot about someone from the company they keep, certainly when they're old enough to know better, like Roger Waters.

 

[Dystopiary]

I believe Norman edit: Norbert Stachel.

 

[redcogs]

Why the fuck are people so desperate to label Roger Waters as racist? He has plenty failings doubtless (especially an overly stoked ego), maybe he has an inconsistent catalogue of work, perhaps he should have been kinder to the other Floyd members, and he is certainly guilty of 'earning' too much money out of celebrity and rockstar status. Possibly even his shit stinks vile. But why the clamor for him to be seen as an anti semitic racist prick? i cant see it. i can see that he needs to modify some of his art to take into account various cultural and historical twists and turns. But in so far as i can detect a central theme/message to his work it mainly relates to an anti establishment critique and a pacifist approach to warfare and an understanding that capitalism and religion are pretty much a disaster areas which do damage to society. Roger Waters aint a twat, and i still dont believe he is racist.

 

[Orang Utan]

Because he’s hard to be charitable about. He doesn’t carry himself well. He’s arrogant, he’s crass and he’s just not a likeable person. And he says racist things and does dubious shit on stage that fuel these things, like dressing up in Naziesque costumes and employing empty sloganeering like Rik off of The Young Ones. A juvenile intellect, a monstrous ego and just an odious plank in all respects.
But apparently his impossible-to-fathom ‘talent’ and membership of one of the most overrated bands ever gets him a pass for all that.