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RIP Sarah Everard, who went missing from Brixton in March 2021

scalyboy said:
Yes, I've seen it done. Long time ago. Plain clothes cop arresting an alleged drug dealer, was with a few friends at the time, weren't sure what was going on so we queried it. Can't recall if we'd asked to see his number / warrant card, but if so I expect he'd told us to piss off. These days you could take a photo, if he was in the process of an abduction maybe that would deter him?
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You’ve lengthened your reply. Couzens had some neck given he abducted Sarah Everard on a busy street, and impulsively. This action ultimately got him caught but didn’t save her from her fate. The left take a keen interest in things like arrests but does wider society? The eye witnesses assumed it was just, as did Sarah.
Cops tend to be hostile to being filmed, boot on the other foot etc.
Of course this is only part of the discussion as more often than not opportunistic stranger abduction of women tend not to be the police. And more common are attacks that don’t even involve planning and where the perpetrators are known.
 
Sue said:
This ^ kind of thing seems to me to be part of the problem -- men (I'm guessing you're male marshall?) coming over all violent and vengeful when it comes to protecting their womenfolk or defending their honour or whatever.

I don't want men to protect me or get all violent over it, I just don't want this shit to happen. Which involves preventing this stuff from happening in the first place rather than reacting violently after the fact.

(I'm not sure I've expressed myself very well here but hopefully you get my point.)
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You have expressed yourself very well and I absolutely agree.
 
kittyP said:
You have expressed yourself very well and I absolutely agree.
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It's why all the retributive bullshit whenever something like this comes up is so wearing - suddenly, the agenda shifts from prevention, and victims, and becomes all about the perpetrator. It's the same with perpetrators of child sexual abuse...and as a survivor of that, I can say that it is horribly diminishing of those affected by the offence, even if it dressed up as some sort of misguided solidarity with the victim, or the group being victimised. We/they/you don't need pitchforks and chest-beating, gorilla style.
 
existentialist said:
www.theguardian.com

Women given mixed advice on checking police identity after Sarah Everard murder

Met says plainclothes officers will no longer patrol on their own as force admits it needs to do more to earn trust
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Pretty much every police response in that piece says "just carry on as usual". There seems to be no acknowledgement - let alone remorse - that a police officer was able to abuse his position in this way. And THAT is just enabling behaviour for those police officers - and let's face it, this one was not unique - who do choose to abuse the privileges afforded to them in their work.

If ever "root and branch" change were needed, this is an indication as to why. This isn't about apples, rotten or otherwise.
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I do recall at least one case here in Scotland involving a police officer taking advantage of his position to rape at least two vulnerable women. It's not isolated, and from what I read this man certainly seemed like he was exercising his right to do as he pleased because he was police.

Police officer gets 12 years for rape (from 2001)

Ex-police officer who raped three women told to 'burn in hell' (2019)

And in case it hadn't been posted recently here, this sobering article from the Guardian written less than three weeks after Sarah was abducted:

www.theguardian.com

Revealed: the grim list of sex abuse claims against Metropolitan police

Nearly 600 Scotland Yard employees faced claims of sexual misconduct over six years, as pressure grows on ‘misogynist’ force
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
existentialist said:
It's why all the retributive bullshit whenever something like this comes up is so wearing - suddenly, the agenda shifts from prevention, and victims, and becomes all about the perpetrator. It's the same with perpetrators of child sexual abuse...and as a survivor of that, I can say that it is horribly diminishing of those affected by the offence, even if it dressed up as some sort of misguided solidarity with the victim, or the group being victimised. We/they/you don't need pitchforks and chest-beating, gorilla style.
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There’s definitely a school of thought within feminism / survivor narratives of white knighting of this kind but I could point to communities where the school of thought is absolutely about retribution for things like crimes against women/children. And it isn’t a male only phenomenon. Some crimes should be considered beyond the pale and I don’t think those taking that stance should be criticised particularly. When we talk about deterrents, it shouldn’t only be owned by the state.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
There’s definitely a school of thought within feminism / survivor narratives of white knighting of this kind but I could point to communities where the school of thought is absolutely about retribution for things like crimes against women/children. And it isn’t a male only phenomenon. Some crimes should be considered beyond the pale and I don’t think those taking that stance should be criticised particularly. When we talk about deterrents, it shouldn’t only be owned by the state.
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But by the time we're talking about crimes, and whether or not they are beyond the pale, we've missed the main opportunity - that of reducing the likelihood of the crime occurring in the first place, by better detection and dealing with dubious earlier instances (as per this case), but even more so by looking at - and acting on - the likely influences that bring people to the position where they can contemplate committing such crimes.
 
existentialist said:
But by the time we're talking about crimes, and whether or not they are beyond the pale, we've missed the main opportunity - that of reducing the likelihood of the crime occurring in the first place, by better detection and dealing with dubious earlier instances (as per this case), but even more so by looking at - and acting on - the likely influences that bring people to the position where they can contemplate committing such crimes.
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I absolutely agree with that. Was just countering the view that this stuff should be left to law and order which is ironic given who perpetrated the crime and that the threat of vigilantism is somehow toxic.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
You’ve lengthened your reply. Couzens had some neck given he abducted Sarah Everard on a busy street, and impulsively. This action ultimately got him caught but didn’t save her from her fate. The left take a keen interest in things like arrests but does wider society? The eye witnesses assumed it was just, as did Sarah.
Cops tend to be hostile to being filmed, boot on the other foot etc.
Of course this is only part of the discussion as more often than not opportunistic stranger abduction of women tend not to be the police. And more common are attacks that don’t even involve planning and where the perpetrators are known.
Click to expand...

If filming cops by way of a deterrent you should state loudly and often that you are livestreaming the footage, even if you're not.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
I read that he was into violent porn, which I think is illegal but perhaps not being investigated in the same way as child porn.
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Violent porn is mainstream. Women getting slapped, choked, forced is what most porn is about nowadays.

Women have been killed so frequently by men using the ‘rough sex gone wrong’ euphemism that there has been a law introduced against it.

I tell you what the solution is. Zero tolerance. Zero tolerance every time one of your mates say, ‘I’d like to smash her back doors in’ ‘look at the tits on that’ ‘jailbait‘ or any other objectifying statement you can think of. Or calls a woman a stupid bitch or says she’s breaking your balls or you’re on a ball and chain if you treat your partner with respect.

All of that stuff. It’s the steady drip drip of objectification, of thinking of women as not quite human. Of othering us. Everyday sexism is the bedrock upon which men like Couzens rise.
 
trashpony said:
Violent porn is mainstream. Women getting slapped, choked, forced is what most porn is about nowadays.

Women have been killed so frequently by men using the ‘rough sex gone wrong’ euphemism that there has been a law introduced against it.

I tell you what the solution is. Zero tolerance. Zero tolerance every time one of your mates say, ‘I’d like to smash her back doors in’ ‘look at the tits on that’ ‘jailbait‘ or any other objectifying statement you can think of. Or calls a woman a stupid bitch or says she’s breaking your balls or you’re on a ball and chain if you treat your partner with respect.

All of that stuff. It’s the steady drip drip of objectification, of thinking of women as not quite human. Of othering us. Everyday sexism is the bedrock upon which men like Couzens rise.
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I don’t have any mates like that. And I stand up to misogyny the same way I do fascists or racists. But clearly I’m in the minority. I drink with people who support that stance. Birds of a feather.
But maybe there needs to be an actual anti-misogyny movement like anti-fascism. Would be difficult to participate in given I don’t think passive actions work and aggressive actions with male involvement would be frowned upon.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
And even better, be actually doing it, else they think up some reason to confiscate your camera/phone.
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If you actually livestream it you could be incriminating someone else though. And you can't edit the footage to anonymise people.

You can call out shoulder numbers, time and location etc; but only stuff related to the police and what they're doing.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
I don’t have any mates like that. And I stand up to misogyny the same way I do fascists or racists. But clearly I’m in the minority. I drink with people who support that stance. Birds of a feather.
But maybe there needs to be an actual anti-misogyny movement like anti-fascism. Would be difficult to participate in given I don’t think passive actions work and aggressive actions with male involvement would be frowned upon.
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What, like feminism you mean? No, I don't think that will ever catch on.
 
SpookyFrank said:
If you actually livestream it you could be incriminating someone else though. And you can't edit the footage to anonymise people.

You can call out shoulder numbers, time and location etc; but only stuff related to the police and what they're doing.
Click to expand...

Well we were discussing abductions rather than political events but I agree completely on the latter.
 
trashpony said:
Violent porn is mainstream. Women getting slapped, choked, forced is what most porn is about nowadays.

Women have been killed so frequently by men using the ‘rough sex gone wrong’ euphemism that there has been a law introduced against it.

I tell you what the solution is. Zero tolerance. Zero tolerance every time one of your mates say, ‘I’d like to smash her back doors in’ ‘look at the tits on that’ ‘jailbait‘ or any other objectifying statement you can think of. Or calls a woman a stupid bitch or says she’s breaking your balls or you’re on a ball and chain if you treat your partner with respect.

All of that stuff. It’s the steady drip drip of objectification, of thinking of women as not quite human. Of othering us. Everyday sexism is the bedrock upon which men like Couzens rise.
Click to expand...
I get that. The zero tolerance thing, I mean. I've steadily become the more po-faced one who, when a "dodgy" joke is cracked, will straight-facedly point out why I don't think it's funny, etc. It has been a long time since I've heard anyone in my orbit make any of the more violent statements you describe, but if they did, I'd be starting out with "Seriously? Fuck off with that attitude.", and it wouldn't end there.

Anecdote: my 17 year old step-granddaughter came to visit one sunny Saturday, and someone was heard to make some kind of sexual remark about her. He was immediately accosted by at least two of the people I know and put very clearly in the picture. I am glad that things like that do happen, even if they need to happen more.

As far as objectification goes, I had to really hammer home to my ex that it really wasn't helpful to always focus on SGD's appearance ("oh, you look so beautiful") - not for her own emotional wellbeing, nor in terms of the messages that kind of thing sends, particularly the conflation of affection and objectification in her mind. It's an insidious problem, which inevitably ends up playing out in the behaviours of men, but we all need to be rooting it - and calling it - out, whoever's perpetrating it.

The thing I've found is that, once you've had the courage to nail your colours to the mast, it really does start to make a difference. There will always be the diehards, giving it the "oh, better not say anything, existentialist's around" thing, but I think that there's always a much more easily-swayed middle ground who are probably quite uncomfortable with the sexist rhetoric, but don't quite have the courage of their convictions. Any of us can be the one to take the first step.

Apologies, I think we're heading off into debate, which probably warrants a separate thread. </derail>
 
Magnus McGinty said:
But maybe there needs to be an actual anti-misogyny movement like anti-fascism. Would be difficult to participate in given I don’t think passive actions work and aggressive actions with male involvement would be frowned upon.
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That's a great idea. Huge scope for educational aspects, too. "How to call out your sexist mates", etc.
 
No punishment imposed on this man will bring Sarah Everard back to her parents, extended family and friends. I get that.

But let me tell something about retributive justice. When I was 10 years old, I was the smallest student in my class. I knew my height and my wanting to keep to myself were the reasons why I got picked on by big boys in my class. Once, a boy much bigger than I was, who wasn’t known for being violent or doing any dumb shit, took my school bag and threw all my schoolbooks on the classroom floor while the class was waiting for teacher, so as it goes all kids, including myself, were chatting to other students. When I said hey, these are my books, why are emptying my bag and throwing my books on the floor! he said shut up, just pick them up before the teacher gets here. Naturally, I got up and began collecting the books off the floor, and as I was putting them on the desk, he decided to throw them even further. At that point, the whole thing became a spectacle. None of the kids had stepped in, worse yet some other boys joined in the book throwing. When I said quit doing this, I will report you he just laughed. As he was letting out his laughter, he threw one of the books again and its hardcover corner ended up piercing my head. It hurt like hell. Because I was too worried for being disciplined by the teacher, I grabbed my bag and resumed collecting books and stuffing them in my bag. Lo and behold, the teacher walked in and said why are your books all over the classroom floor? When I told her that the boy in question threw them and other kids joined in, so not all of the books on the floor were mine, she said you made the mess, you clean it. When I protested she told me to zip it. None of the kids had stepped in.

Once I collected all of the books, I was told to leave the classroom. I was furious. I walked over to my 15 year old brother’s class and asked to speak to him. I told him what happened, of course I was in tears and then I said can you check my head? When he untied my hair, he said I was bleeding. I said can you help me? He understood that I was hurt, humiliated, and defenseless. We walked to the classroom that I was told to leave. We walked in and before the teacher could say a word my brother said my kid sister was assaulted here and you failed to protect her. Then he took me by my hand, we both walked up to the boy and my brother said do you know she is bleeding from her head? Is this funny to you? Do you think it makes you cool to pick on someone smaller than you? The boy started to cry. My brother said you are going to ask her for forgiveness and then she will decide what she wants to do. The boy said he was sorry. I started to cry. My brother said don’t cry, you’ve done nothing wrong. The teacher began to yell leave the classroom now!, my brother held my hands and said do you want to do something? I said yes, I took a book out of my bag and hit the boy with all the might and fury I had in my body. The teacher screamed you’ll both be disciplined! My brother then said if you ever raise a finger against my sister, it’ll be me hitting you next time. I was jubilant.

Having read this thread, I realise that some of you will find my brother's and my actions abhorrent. But after this incident, I’ve never had a single issue with any of the boys at school. Although this didn't stop me being kicked by a police man in the stomach at 17 when I tried to stop him from beating a homeless man. This didn't stop me from being attacked by a drunk taxi driver at 20.

Yes, I know, no punishment imposed on this man will bring Sarah Everard back.
 
Poot said:
I'm going to assume you're joking but this is in particularly poor taste. Please don't do this on this thread.
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It was in the context of organising against misogyny in the same way we would fascists that some suddenly scoffed at. I was expressing that I do watch misogynists in the same way I do fascists. Not sure why it’s in poor taste but happy to abandon that line of discussion if it causes offence and I apologise for offending you.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
It was in the context of organising against misogyny in the same way we would fascists that some suddenly scoffed at. I was expressing that I do watch misogynists in the same way I do fascists. Not sure why it’s in poor taste but happy to abandon that line of discussion if it causes offence and I apologise for offending you.
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With the radical/far right using misogyny to attract recruits it makes sense to act as you suggest. Clearly as trashpony says there should be a zero tolerance policy and people coming out with this bullshit should be pulled up on it. But as you say with your reference to incels misogyny is becoming a rallying point around which forces of reaction gather.
 
American porn has had a massive effect. Can anyone remember a time when it was not normal entertainment for men to hurt and degrade women? Outside of porn, it's fairly normal for American men to describe all women as whores who only want men for their money. There's so much American culture which portrays marriage as a financial transaction. Maybe the UK is as bad? So many men think that you have to pay for sex in a relationship, so you might as well just buy it from a prostitute. Love and friendship and companionship are not part of the equation.
 
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