riots in paris banlieu...

[DaveCinzano]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4392126.stm

(couldn't see a thread)

4 nights of rioting in clichy-sous-bois following the gruesome death of two teenagers who, it is claimed, were being chased by police when they fell onto an electricity sub-station. a third youngster is seriously ill, and a police-issue tear gas cannister has also been fired into a mosque in the area.

not really heard much on this. thoughts?

 

[mauvais]

Sounds a bit like La Haine - it's hardly a massive surprise, and sounds like it'll be made worse, with Sarkozy's remarks reminiscent of CRS tactics from a former era; certainly won't solve the underlying issues.

I lived in Paris but was advised by all never to leave the central arrondissements of the city unless I knew exactly what I was doing; it's all very anecdotal but I felt there was an extremely strong divide between inside the peripherique and outside. Paris is only a small city enclosed quite tightly by the motorway, and it feels like everything outside is forgotten by the rich inside - until the occasional invasion from time to time, which only deepens the difference.

Where I lived in the UK has always been quite sheltered, so I don't know how valid this is, but it doesn't seem to me that there's a strong English equivalent of the banlieues. Of course there are individual 'ghetto' areas but not in such a formulaic fashion if you like. It's certainly never a translation of any 'suburban' concept.

This page gives you a bit better of an idea than I can: http://www.well.ac.uk/cfol/lesannees.asp

 

[gawkrodger]

if anyone is really interested in the banlieus i have some useful reading lists. I did a fascinating course on them as part of my degree. It'll be interesting to see if this leads to a repeat of the events of the mid '90s again

 

[DaveCinzano]

nous somme tous des casseurs

gawkridger - those reading lists sound interesting... there's some interesting material about space/place and the whole banlieu shebang, can't find it at the mo though

mauv - did you ever spend any time in the banlieus then? were you in paris during the school student/wrecker riots?

 

[gawkrodger]

pm me yo!

i've got some very good journal articles as well.
not sure why i didn't do my course paper on the banlieurs

edit: Yes i do, i did it on the FN instead. I think the title was something along the lines of 'Will the death of J-M Le Pen see the demise of the FN'

 

[mauvais]

Nope on both counts - I never ventured out of the city that much as it took me a long time to get my bearings in the first place; just as I started to, it was time to go. I think I did build up a fair idea of the culture of the city and country, but as I've said, it's in no way a concrete picture based on experience. I find it very interesting and hopefully I'm going back there, and I'd like to really find out more.

As for the student incident, there's always some trouble with any big event though; there were burnt out cars next to my work in the city centre after the last Fete de la Musique and a fair bit in the local news about it - the same for the Bastille.

Here's another bit of recentish news along the same theme of a social gap; following the spate of fires within Paris, loads of Africans were moved out to this tent village in Aubervilliers; that's about 5km outside Paris - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4343204.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4230298.stm - gives you an idea of the differences.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

if anyone is really interested in the banlieus i have some useful reading lists. I did a fascinating course on them as part of my degree. It'll be interesting to see if this leads to a repeat of the events of the mid '90s again

I'd be interested in the titles.

 

[kasheem]

4 nights of rioting in clichy-sous-bois following the gruesome death of two teenagers who, it is claimed, were being chased by police when they fell onto an electricity sub-station. a third youngster is seriously ill, and a police-issue tear gas cannister has also been fired into a mosque in the area.

There's no evidence whatsoever that this happened. The usual group of looney-left groups are responsible for starting this rumour. Or let's even further, suppose it was true what the hell difference does it make? Why were they running from the police?

If the cops were chasing them it's probably for a reason. Probably they beat somebody up, held up a store or raped some woman unlucky enough to be on her own in their 'territory'. Let's get serious... what do you want the police to do? Pat them on the back?

That's not even touching the fact that they killed themselves. Nobody told them to go into an electric sub-station... Unkinder people than me would say you're seeing the theory of evolution in action.

Finally why are you talking about 'banlieus'? Just call them neighbourhoods, suburbs or estates which is what they are. Importing words from other languages for no reason doesn't make you look trendy. And yes superficial details aside you do get the same things in big cities here in Britain.

 

[butchersapron]

"Nous Sommes Tous Des Casseurs" - Youth Revolt in France, March 1994

 

[kasheem]

Bet you want to be one right butcher? Harrassing poor pensioners slapping teenage girls... yes, that's the working class spirit in action.

 

[mauvais]

Finally why are you talking about 'banlieus'? Just call them neighbourhoods, suburbs or estates which is what they are. Importing words from other languages for no reason doesn't make you look trendy. And yes superficial details aside you do get the same things in big cities here in Britain.

I'm not that convinced you do. In any case, the word 'banlieu' is perfectly acceptable; they're in France, and in my view specific to France - you get better and worse equivalents around the globe but not the same. It even has a bloody Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banlieue - which describes the phrase as a euphemism.

 

[DaveCinzano]

oi! twat!

There's no evidence whatsoever that this happened.

seeing as the riots apparently kicked off largely as a result of the allegation - denied by police - it seemed relevent to mention that it was claimed.

If the cops were chasing them it's probably for a reason. Probably they beat somebody up, held up a store or raped some woman unlucky enough to be on her own in their 'territory'. Let's get serious... what do you want the police to do? Pat them on the back?

ah... didn't take long, did it?

"the polis weren't chasing them... but if they were, they deserved it"

genius

Finally why are you talking about 'banlieus'? Just call them neighbourhoods, suburbs or estates which is what they are. Importing words from other languages for no reason doesn't make you look trendy.

who's trying to be trendy? as has been pointed out, 'banlieu' has a cultural meaning not directly translatable into english.

so, like, up yours josephine.

 

[Sorry.]

Our fun third-position troll's been away for a while hasn't he...

 

[kasheem]

I don't care what fucking 'position' you want me to take you in. Like most in this thread the fact is you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Go back to fantasising about the tactics to use in the coming revolution and leave serious topics to serious people.

 

[mauvais]

Oh and the police are - for onc in my experience - overtly dodgy; one example is how my boss opened a bar as a side project. Opening night, a drunk walked smack bang into the glass door. Cue much laughter, especially from two equally pissed partygoers. He didn't take kindly to this, and they ended up fighting in the street. One of them got a pint glass and smashed it over the drunk's head/face, pretty nasty stuff. Right on cue the police arrived, having been driving down the road and watching it all.

The two partygoers were about to be arrested when one of their girlfriends came out, pulled out her pass which said she worked for the pompiers, said it was the tramp's fault, gave them some money, and they were off. Actually before they left my colleague took some photos of them, which made them really pissed off and got his camera confiscated.

Noone seemed surprised.

 

[ether]

I lived in La Courneuve and Drancy a few years ago. tbh, 'le bronx' has a reputation more based on uninformed chattering and hearsay than any thing else.
Yeah, all the stuff you hear about goes on there, but la banlieue is a huge fucking 20km belt around Paris. Even the places in it with a bad rep are in some ways nicer than some UK estates.

 

[Sorry.]

I don't care what fucking 'position' you want me to take you in. Like most in this thread the fact is you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Go back to fantasising about the tactics to use in the coming revolution and leave serious topics to serious people.

you weren't missed, y'know, in case you were wondering...

 

[kasheem]

Oh and the police are - for onc in my experience - overtly dodgy; one example is how my boss opened a bar as a side project. Opening night, a drunk walked smack bang into the glass door. Cue much laughter, especially from two equally pissed partygoers. He didn't take kindly to this, and they ended up fighting in the street. One of them got a pint glass and smashed it over the drunk's head/face, pretty nasty stuff. Right on cue the police arrived, having been driving down the road and watching it all.

The two partygoers were about to be arrested when one of their girlfriends came out, pulled out her pass which said she worked for the pompiers, said it was the tramp's fault, gave them some money, and they were off. Actually before they left my colleague took some photos of them, which made them really pissed off and got his camera confiscated.

Noone seemed surprised.

French-to-English translation: pompiers = firemen.

About what you said you may be right, there's corruption in all walks of life. But I don't see what it's got to do with the matter at hand - that a group of low-life scum ran into an electric substation and short-circuited (not very hard) their brains.

You all seem to be casually assuming that the police did something wrong when there's no evidence that it's true.

 

[gawkrodger]

you mean like how there is no evidence that the three lads were 'lowlife scum'?

 

[kasheem]

Yeah, all the stuff you hear about goes on there, but la banlieue is a huge fucking 20km belt around Paris. Even the places in it with a bad rep are in some ways nicer than some UK estates.

Where a majority of ordinary law-abiding working-class and middle class people live because the centre is too expensive. The problem isn't poverty or unemployment (though they exist), it's that a few gangs of uneducated imbeciles manage to terrorise whole neighbourhoods and that the police are usually too afraid to try to tackle the problem. It spirals out of control and when the police do go in there's violence.

In fact, the response to this event is crazy from the start. People should be happy that the cops were for once actually doing their jobs..

 

[DaveCinzano]

You all seem to be casually assuming that the police did something wrong when there's no evidence that it's true.

let's refresh...

kasheem:

"it never happened! the police weren't chasing no one, guv!"

"although if they were chasing anyone, it would have been guilty scumbags"

"and possibly brown-skinned... immigrants, you might say"

"gas them all"

"it's genetic, y'know"

i paraphrase

 

[mauvais]

French-to-English translation: pompiers = firemen.

About what you said you may be right, there's corruption in all walks of life. But I don't see what it's got to do with the matter at hand - that a group of low-life scum ran into an electric substation and short-circuited (not very hard) their brains.

You all seem to be casually assuming that the police did something wrong when there's no evidence that it's true.

Sapeur pompiers are the first response ambulance service as well as far as I could gather; yeah there's the SAMU but you pay for that.

I don't assume the police were any more to blame than they are in this recent British case (I don't think they were there). It's not really about that incident, it's about underlying problems. There's probably some parallels to be drawn with the Birmingham troubles. My main concern is what Sarkozy has planned now.

Here's another anecdotal example of his fantastic ability to reason: http://urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3120411&postcount=140

 

[kasheem]

Still haven't got over your fixation with race? I'm sorry, it takes time but keep trying...

 

[butchersapron]

let's refresh...

kasheem:

"it never happened! the police weren't chasing no one, guv!"

"although if they were chasing anyone, it would have been guilty scumbags"

"and possibly brown-skinned... immigrants, you might say"

"gas them all"

"it's genetic, y'know"

i paraphrase

Yet you still managed to present a more convincing case than he managed.

 

[ether]

Where a majority of ordinary law-abiding working-class and middle class people live because the centre is too expensive. The problem isn't poverty or unemployment (though they exist), it's that a few gangs of uneducated imbeciles manage to terrorise whole neighbourhoods and that the police are usually too afraid to try to tackle the problem. It spirals out of control and when the police do go in there's violence.

In fact, the response to this event is crazy from the start. People should be happy that the cops were for once actually doing their jobs..

poverty and unemployment not a problem?
police too afraid?
people should be happy?
please.

 

[kasheem]

I don't assume the police were any more to blame than they are in this recent British case (I don't think they were there). It's not really about that incident, it's about underlying problems. There's probably some parallels to be drawn with the Birmingham troubles. My main concern is what Sarkozy has planned now.

I'll agree with that. There needs to be a lot more done over the long-term (decades) on both the security front and economic front. The exact same remedies that should be used in Birmingham and wherever else in the world this rioting bullshit goes on.

If not people are going to keep dying.

Just don't fall for the opportunists and their simplistic bandwagons trying to profit from it.

 

[where to]

interesting thread. couple of interesting things about the french suburbs.

one is that the quality of housing is in my opinion far better than in the UK. altho i've always noticed that the level of housing in scotland is far worse than london. you can't even begin to compare the east end of glasgows housing to the french schemes.

i wouldn't call them slums.

they are, though, dumped miles from jobs and often without access to cars (decent public transport more than not though). this lead in the mid eighties to the whole theory of social inclusion etc, which is popular rhetoric in new labour world now.

the other big difference from the uk is that the areas are generally mixed race. not too many whites, but blacks, north africans, muslims and non muslims etc etc. and they seem to mix quite well too.

so there is a big difference between this and the birmingham incident. totally different things imo.

kasheem, you say below that these things happen in the uk. in fifteen years living in this country i can safely say that i have not once heard of an incident similar to this one. its just not true imho.

 

[mauvais]

interesting thread. couple of interesting things about the french suburbs.

one is that the quality of housing is in my opinion far better than in the UK. altho i've always noticed that the level of housing in scotland is far worse than london. you can't even begin to compare the east end of glasgows housing to the french schemes.

i wouldn't call them slums.

they are, though, dumped miles from jobs and often without access to cars (decent public transport more than not though). this lead in the mid eighties to the whole theory of social inclusion etc, which is popular rhetoric in new labour world now.

the other big difference from the uk is that the areas are generally mixed race. not too many whites, but blacks, north africans, muslims and non muslims etc etc. and they seem to mix quite well too.

so there is a big difference between this and the birmingham incident. totally different things imo.

kasheem, you say below that these things happen in the uk. in fifteen years living in this country i can safely say that i have not once heard of an incident similar to this one. its just not true imho.

I don't know about the quality of housing; from the little I've seen on the news etc I'm not that sure, but I don't have much experience of either. Some of the cheap housing inside the peripherique was really nasty though - not even the ones that caught on fire, that's a different issue.

Everything else you say is spot on. I didn't mean it was the same as the Birmingham riots, just that there has to be something bubbling away under the surface for either to really kick off.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

the police are usually too afraid to try to tackle the problem. It spirals out of control and when the police do go in there's violence.

you don't know the french police and their ways, do you?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I lived in Paris but was advised by all never to leave the central arrondissements of the city unless I knew exactly what I was doing; it's all very anecdotal but I felt there was an extremely strong divide between inside the peripherique and outside. Paris is only a small city enclosed quite tightly by the motorway, and it feels like everything outside is forgotten by the rich inside - until the occasional invasion from time to time, which only deepens the difference.

not everywhere is occupied by the rich inside the peripherique . there are plenty of others, too. you can go in the outer arrondissements of the city quite safely, like the 16th arronsissement...

felt there was an extremely strong divide between inside the peripherique and outside.

en dehors du periph, ce sont des zonards.