Resource-Based Economy: Could it work?

[Dr Dolittle]

This is an idea, of American origin, that has apparently been going around for a few years, but I've only recently discovered it. In a nutshell, it is that we should have an economic system based on maximising the efficiency of how we use and distribute resources instead of making money. Superficially, this is similar to communism - the kind envisioned by Marx after the state had withered away - but the Zeitgeist Movement, who seem to be the main promoters of RBE, say it is about science and technology, not politics. They believe an economy that provides an abundance of goods for everyone on the planet - produced in such a way as to not harm the environment - wouldn't need money, a state or laws. That sounds a bit far-fetched to me, but the idea of an economy based on making the best use of existing resources rather than on profit could be a way forward - something to replace capitalism, which I think uses resources very inefficiently.

The problem is getting from here to there: the Zeitgeist Movement seem to think all we have to do is persuade enough people to support the idea, which for political reasons I think is naive. A debate on that belongs in the Politics section of this thread, so leaving that aside, do you think RBE is possible?

 

[butchersapron]

Something other than capitalism is possible yes. The fantasy roger dean drivel of the Zeitgeist version of resource based economy (and all economies are resource based economies, it's a pointless feel-god fluffy tautology designed to atract those who want change but are a bit vague about it) is not. And if it were it would be a nightmare technocratic fascism - and the intellectual underpinnings of it were destroyed in the debates around the birth of social-sciences and positivism back in the 19th century.

 

[dilute micro]

I want an office job when it all kicks in.

 

[TruXta]

I'd like a gardening job, please.

 

[frogwoman]

no

 

[Blagsta]

It's a rehash of the utopian socialism of saint-Simon etc, total rubbish

 

[BigTom]

I want an office job when it all kicks in.

I'd like a gardening job, please.

Sorry, I'm afraid that according to at least one person who is into this, no-one will work because everything will be automated.

Butcher's nailed it.. technocracy.. you have a computer which you tell where all the resources are and the computer decides where they go to.. computer is programmed by anyone who has the time/capability to learn how to do the coding, and of course never goes wrong..
all production is automated.. doesn't seem to matter that all the technology to do this doesn't exist yet.
Farming is an interesting one, because they advocate automated hydroponic systems (which do exist but are very new tech).. problem with this is that (afaik) you cannot use organic fertiliser in hydroponic systems, which means it is dependent on oil.. totally the wrong way to be going with food production imo, which needs to be headed to organic/permaculture type stuff. Haven't had an answer to this yet, suspect it will be that some substitute for oil based fertilisers will appear.

Based on a belief of a world of plenty, doesn't seem to have an answer to what happens when there is not enough food to feed everyone..

 

[TruXta]

Nuke from orbit.

 

[rover07]

A bit like the Culture then.

When will the first Mind be created?

 

[love detective]

Based on a belief of a world of plenty, doesn't seem to have an answer to what happens when there is not enough food to feed everyone..

to be fair, that's something communism/socialism or whatever we want to call it doesn't seem to have an answer for either (and it's largely based on the same premise - abundance relative to the overall population, not scarcity)

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Is there a good answer for "what to do if there isn't enough food"? It's when you have to ask it and why.

 

[rover07]

Why wouldnt there be enough food?

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Presumably, the computer would tell you when you're allowed to breed. Demand for food could be managed quite carefully.

I'm not opposed to this scheme and would support a ten-year trial in a selected region. "Technocratic fascism" is a very loaded term that gets used to describe sound public administration.

 

[xenon]

So do the proponents of this system just handwave scarcity away?

 

[BigTom]

to be fair, that's something communism/socialism or whatever we want to call it doesn't seem to have an answer for either (and it's largely based on the same premise - abundance relative to the overall population, not scarcity)

yes that's true.. there was almost a denial that could be a possibility though. I don't think communism/socialism is the same as RBE in terms of abudancy.. sociallism is still trying to answer the question of how we allocate scarce resources, whereas it just seems to be assumed that there will definitely be enough of everything in an RBE.

Why wouldnt there be enough food?

Because lots of fertiliser is based on oil, and when oil runs out that won't be available, potentially a huge drop in the amount of food that can be produced.. and the RBE people were proposing a system of farming that relied on inorganic fertilisers. I've heard claims that permaculture techniques can be as productive as inorganic/intensive farming but I don't know how true that actually is. It seems to me that medium to long term we need to be adopting organic farming techniques and this is going the other way.
Then who knows what climate change might do to food production, doomsday scenario is large areas of desertification + large areas of land under water = much less arable land.. This is obviously a problem for any system.

 

[Dr Dolittle]

I wasn't proposing that we adopt RBE wholesale according to the ideas of the Zeitgeist Movement. And an economy that is literally fully-automated, with no human involvement at all is probably impossible. If that is what they mean. I assumed they just meant a bit more automation than we have at present.

I don't agree that all economies are resourced-based. Under capitalism, money is used as a commodity to be traded, when it should be just a measuring system. You shouldn't be able to trade currencies and make money out of them any more than you can trade kilometres or litres. When you start using money as a commodity, it develops into what we have now: an industry in its own right, wasting material and human resources that could be put into producing something socially useful, though we will always need administration and management. That, to me, is what a resource-based economy is, not a science fiction-style world run by robots.

I am also assuming that more automation, more efficient use of resources, and the absense of unproductive activity like banking, marketing and defence will give people more time to participate in a decentralised democratic system, with all decision-making devolved down to the lowest practical level. IT has made this possible for the first time.

As for the problems with food production, that is a separate issue, nothing to do with RBE or any other economic system.

 

[butchersapron]

I wasn't proposing that we adopt RBE wholesale according to the ideas of the Zeitgeist Movement. And an economy that is literally fully-automated, with no human involvement at all is probably impossible. If that is what they mean. I assumed they just meant a bit more automation than we have at present.

It's not

 

[butchersapron]

I

I don't agree that all economies are resourced-based. Under capitalism, money is used as a commodity to be traded, when it should be just a measuring system. You shouldn't be able to trade currencies and make money out of them any more than you can trade kilometres or litres. When you start using money as a commodity, it develops into what we have now: an industry in its own right, wasting material and human resources that could be put into producing something socially useful, though we will always need administration and management. That, to me, is what a resource-based economy is, not a science fiction-style world run by robots.

I am also assuming that more automation, more efficient use of resources, and the absense of unproductive activity like banking, marketing and defence will give people more time to participate in a decentralised democratic system, with all decision-making devolved down to the lowest practical level. IT has made this possible for the first time.

As for the problems with food production, that is a separate issue, nothing to do with RBE or any other economic system.

Resource based.

 

[Dr Dolittle]

Wot?

 

[butchersapron]

It's not

Your assumption is wrong

 

[butchersapron]

Wot?

Find a non resource based economy.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Find a non resource based economy.

The cargo cults of the south Pacific.

 

[butchersapron]

The cargo cults of the south Pacific.

Not an economy- a phenomenon.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I give up then

 

[butchersapron]

I give up then

Back to your little boxes from above,you make me retch

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

 

[TruXta]

You're not getting butcher's almost trivial point, Spanky. He wants you to point to an actual or even theoretical economy or model thereof that doesn't revolve around the allocation of resources. Because, you know, that's what economy is all about.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

You're not getting butcher's almost trivial point, Spanky. He wants you to point to an actual or even theoretical economy or model thereof that doesn't revolve around the allocation of resources. Because, you know, that's what economy is all about.

I know, and he's correct of course there is no such thing as a non RBE I'm just mucking about.

 

[butchersapron]

I know, and he's correct of course there is no such thing as a non RBE I'm just mucking about.

He just doesn't get us.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

doesn't understand