Rejecting vaccination - "growing public health time bomb", NHS Chief warns

[farmerbarleymow]

What really boils my noggin are the fuckwits claiming that vaccines are part of some dastardly money-making scheme by Big Pharma, when in fact NOT vaccinating results in far more medical costs being accrued:

After unvaccinated Oregon boy contracted tetanus, it took 2 months, $800,000 to save him

Which is nonsense when you think vaccines don't make pharmaceutical companies that much money, and they are effectively indemnified by governments for any serious adverse affects that might result from them.

 

[SpookyFrank]

He's not that cute mate.

Yeah well I was being polite wasn't I?

 

[8ball]

What really boils my noggin are the fuckwits claiming that vaccines are part of some dastardly money-making scheme by Big Pharma, when in fact NOT vaccinating results in far more medical costs being accrued:

After unvaccinated Oregon boy contracted tetanus, it took 2 months, $800,000 to save him

But why would Big Pharma agree to make vaccines in such a case?

* - edited to avoid derails by pointing out this is a flippant rhetorical question posted from inside imaginary anti-vaxxer mindset

 

[Poi E]

Some vaccines were never patented like polio, so cheap generics are available.

 

[felixthecat]

My kids were born/brought up overseas. It was a requirement for parents to produce proof of vaccinations when registering for pre school. Hence that particular (albeit very small) country had vaccination rates of 98-99% for DPT, MMR and BCG.

It works. Last case of measles was in 1990. And herd immunity protects those (like little Joe above) who are unable to have vaccinations.

Instituting a similar programme here would be a greater challenge given the vastly larger numbers involved but fuck me, it would be worth it.

 

[polly]

Obviously something has to be done to protect antivaxxers' kids, people with compromised immune systems and the rest of us. I do though feel like tackling the antivaxxers would be like chopping off one of the Hydra's heads - this weird rejection of science, evidence and progress manifests in exactly the same, belligerent, wilfully stupid way across the spectrum: anti vaxx, flat earth, essential oils worship, aged piss enemas, turp drinking, black salving... And all these have links to fundamental Christianity, far right politics, people crying about fake news and the MSM... certain elements of Brexit *ducks*

Honestly I have no idea how you tackle all this at once though. The Dunning-Kruger effect is very much in effect. Plus, people have been led to believe that everyone in a position of authority is lying to them and everyone believing their lies is an idiot. And there's the additional problem that there is a tiny nugget of truth in some of these causes - some people are injured by vaccines, the establishment is lying to us about shit all the time. So I don't know, but I do think that this is just one facet (albeit probably the most important at the moment) of a much bigger, scarier monster.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm not at all surprised that anti-science-ism, conspiracism and woo has been growing alongside religious practice around the world. They fit together perfectly and encourage the same mindset .. magical thinking, and rejection of evidence and available facts in favour of The Power of Belief.

 

[polly]

I'm not at all surprised that anti-science-ism, conspiracism and woo has been growing alongside religious practice around the world. They fit together perfectly and encourage the same mindset .. magical thinking, and rejection of evidence and available facts in favour of The Power of Belief.

Yeah, you're right. What I find interesting (and scary) is how the healing crystal types and the religious conservative types have found some kind of common ground. I guess it's not that much of a leap from being armed to the teeth because you don't trust your government to refusing to vaccinate your kids because you don't trust your government.

(edited for shit grammar)

 

[8ball]

Yeah, you're right. What I find interesting (and scary) is how the healing crystal types and the religious conservative types have found some kind of common ground.

Me too. I’d been aware of the shyster Alex Jones selling a lot of woo crap for some time, but I’ve only recently become aware of how deep the rabbit hole goes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Shame there isn't yet an effective vaccination against misanthropy

There is. Vaccination with bullet.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Let’s hear your views on vaccines then Tim


“Hands on healing” my fucking arse

I certainly wouldn't want "hands on healing" from someone who promotes wiring yourself up to your home's electricity mains!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I caught the rank reek of macho posturing emanating from my phone from both his and your post. That was enough for me.

You sure it wasn't your armpit?

 

[ViolentPanda]

‘Mandatory vaccinations’.

So what happens if people refuse?

That's the thing with "mandatory". You can't.

 

[8ball]

That's the thing with "mandatory". You can't.

Yeah, that went well with the Poll Tax.

 

[8ball]

I'm not at all surprised that anti-science-ism, conspiracism and woo has been growing alongside religious practice around the world. They fit together perfectly and encourage the same mindset .. magical thinking, and rejection of evidence and available facts in favour of The Power of Belief.

Any theories on why they’re both in the ascendant right now?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think you'll find the evidence for parachutes mitigating gravitationally-induced kinetic trauma after unscheduled high-altitude vehicular exits is very shaky.

Not a single randomised blinded trial on the books.

I've heard that colloidal silver infusions are good for that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

OK. And when the police come knocking regarding the abduction and assault of a child, what then?

What police?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, that went well with the Poll Tax.

Your 'right' to refuse to vaccinate your child conflicts with my 'right' to expect society to organise itself sufficiently for herd immunity to be established. There are instances where compulsion is justified. This is one.

 

[ViolentPanda]

He's not that cute mate.

Might be without the "electrocuted hedgehog" hairdo, though!

 

[Pickman's model]

Your 'right' to refuse to vaccinate your child conflicts with my 'right' to expect society to organise itself sufficiently for herd immunity to be established. There are instances where compulsion is justified. This is one.

i don't think you've a right to expect society to organise itself sufficiently for herd immunity to be established.

it's more likely children have a right not to be endangered by their parents.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah, that went well with the Poll Tax.

Poll Tax delivery and collection system was over-complex, which fucked it. Mind you, probably some parents fool enough to go on the lam with their kids over it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i don't think you've a right to expect society to organise itself sufficiently for herd immunity to be established.

it's more likely children have a right not to be endangered by their parents.

Well I think we do have that 'right'. Far more than an individual parent might have the 'right' to put that herd immunity in danger for no good reason.

A person whose child cannot be vaccinated for a medical reason should have the 'right' to expect society to provide herd immunity unless there is some good reason not to. There isn't any good reason not to.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well I think we do have that 'right'. Far more than an individual parent might have the 'right' to put that herd immunity in danger for no good reason.

if society's not sufficiently organised for you, your beef's with society and not with the parent

 

[mojo pixy]

Any theories on why they’re both in the ascendant right now?

I do, but I'm at work and on my phone so can't get into long ranty posts just now. I think it's to do with how easy believing things is compared to actually learning about stuff. I think it's to do with the comfort of a narrative that begins and ends with ME and what I like the sound of. I think it's to do with seaking some kind of unassailable position to hold against a world perceived as hostile. I think it's to do with wanting to know things nobody else can know or argue with.

 

[Pickman's model]

Any theories on why they’re both in the ascendant right now?

people are lazy
they read shit on the internet and take it as fact

 

[8ball]

people are lazy
they read shit on the internet and take it as fact

Somewhere along the line a distinction between information and knowledge seems to have faded in a lot of places.

 

[Pickman's model]

Somewhere along the line a distinction between information and knowledge seems to have faded in a lot of places.

some years ago a colleague of mine who was also a lecturer told me she'd encountered students citing film reviews by 16 year-aulds in essays

people don't get taught how to evaluate information. they see something and because it's in the paper or on tv or on the internet IT MUST BE TRUE

 

[polly]

I think it's been helped along massively by a political atmosphere that encourages rejection of expert knowledge and an embracing of feelings over thought (I think it's been engineered this way too by the likes of Bannon in the US). Plus it's inherently narcissistic, this woo stuff, and we're generally more narcissistic these days.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yeah, you're right. What I find interesting (and scary) is how the healing crystal types and the religious conservative types have found some kind of common ground.

Scratch a hippy etc.

 

[cupid_stunt]

people are lazy
they read shit on the internet and take it as fact

I've just taken that as fact.