Rejecting vaccination - "growing public health time bomb", NHS Chief warns

[8ball]

Ah. Was hoping it was the best greasy spoon I'd never heard of

Me too.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, to me it's one of those things like registering births and deaths etc. Just something that you do, as a responsible person (those things I mentioned are of course compulsory, but I've never heard anyone claim that this was down to some dark conspiracy).

A little before my time, people had parents, uncles etc. who had been affected by polio etc. and it just didn't occur to them that our recent relative freedom from infectious childhood diseases was anything other than a medical miracle.

So, let's say you make vaccinations compulsory, you still have the 'information war' element to deal with. Be interesting to see what would happen from that point...

yeah v. good point re polio etc. There really are many levels to the fucking idiocy of anti-vac fuckwits, but the fact their wilful ignorance is enabled in part by the amazing success of the very thing they rail against is one of them.

Where are all the sanitoria for polio victims today?
The what now?
That's the information war, surely. See all these things? No? Exactly.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I put this on the bandwidth thread this morning, not everyone follows that thread, so worth a re-post here...

 

[8ball]

Where are all the sanitoria for polio victims today?
The what now?
That's the information war, surely. See all these things? No? Exactly.

That's too easy to twist round with conspiracy thinking, though.

Do we have any examples of countries that made vaccinations compulsory *after* a conspiranoid boom (I suspect if you'd made it compulsory in the 1970s you'd have had some tutting from a few moral philosophers and a shrug from just about everyone else)?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

(I suspect if you'd made it compulsory in the 1970s you'd have had some tutting from a few moral philosophers and a shrug from just about everyone else)?

I think you're right about that. You might even have had a slight look of disbelief at the idea that it might ever have been non-compulsory. Some things don't have to be enforced by law cos people do them anyway. It's a sorry state of affairs that the law needs to step in here, but it should be done if necessary. Just the mere act of making something the law also has an effect in changing behaviour, even if that law is not enforced in any meaningful way.

 

[8ball]

I think you're right about that. You might even have had a slight look of disbelief at the idea that it might ever have been non-compulsory. Some things don't have to be enforced by law cos people do them anyway. It's a sorry state of affairs that the law needs to step in here, but it should be done if necessary. Just the mere act of making something the law also has an effect in changing behaviour, even if that law is not enforced in any meaningful way.

I remember my grandmother speaking about polio (my grandfather was slightly affected by it) and I think it was seen as a great thing that this no longer happened to children, so the idea of needing to talk about compulsion would seem a bit weird.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

I remember my grandmother speaking about polio (my grandfather was slightly affected by it) and I think it was seen as a great thing that this no longer happened to children, so the idea of needing to talk about compulsion would seem a bit weird.

I might have posted this upthread, but I remember a kid in the 70s who'd had polio. Everyone in the village felt sorry for him, and I think it just encouraged parents to ensure their kids were vaccinated.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Glad #2 is on the mend kebabking and hope she enjoyed her McShits. So scary when medics start to look anxious.

And yes, of course vaccinations should be mandatory for all unless there is a real medical reason why not. And that doctor who’s lies started the MMR = autism thing should be shot.

 

[MickiQ]

This all got a bit personal today.

Over the weekend my #2, who's 8, developed a spectacular rash all over her body, accompanied by a fever and temperature which this morning went past 40c. Started off on the chest with small, distinct red spots, spread everywhere, and this morning those small, distinct spots merged to form huge red splodges all over her chest, belly, and upper arms.

We saw the out of hours GP on Saturday evening, and she thought it was a viral infection, but did the measles checks, the meningitis checks, checked the vaccination history, but eventually came down on the vide of a viral infection.

This morning, with the spots coalescing and her temp at 40.6c, the GP had her segregated from the other patients. the GP was seized of the moment, and after examining #2 for 30 seconds you could see the word MEASLES written across her face. She sent us down to the ever wonderful Paediatrics ward at Worcester - she very pointedly asked me if I had a fast car - where we were met by a Paediatric Registrar who, when she took #2's temperature and lifted up her t-shirt, went grey.

Now, eventually the dreaded Measles has been ruled out, and two Paediatric Consultants have decided that it's a reaction to a drug she's on for her epilepsy called Tegratol.

Not, dear reader, that she's on Tegratol any more...

The point of this endless tome therefore is to drive home the appalling seriousness that is measles - it's not chickenpox, it's a devastingly serious disease that spreads like wildfire, the fear of it turns Paediatricians grey, and idea that vaccinating your children against it, and protecting other children against it, is a something you have the right to say no to, is an idea that has long since been consigned to the bin of history.

Parents don't have the right to say no to education, they don't have the right to say no to social services, and they don't have an untrammeled right to say no to medical treatment - so there's no reason they should have the right to say no to vaccination.

(#2 appears to be fairly well - the rash is still there but the temperature has dropped a bit. She seemed remarkably happy at the idea of a Dirty Ron's for tea and no school tomorrow, so I think she's out of the woods...).

Let me join in the general approval of the fact that your daughter is OK and don't worry about the McShits, All four of mine loved it when they were around 8 but went off it it completely mid to late teens, I reckon it's laced with something that's addictive to kids but doesn't work after puberty.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

well, yes, as nurses aren’t aligned with the GMC, their professional body is the Nursing and Midwifery Council, the GMC is for GPs, surgeons, consultants and other hospital doctors.
Well for one thing, it wouldn’t be “medicating” as vaccines aren’t drugs, and for a second, nurses - like doctors - promise to work “for the public good”, and if that means forcibly vaccinating an anti-vaxers kids, then any ‘assault’ charge isn’t going to stick.

LOL

 

[equationgirl]

Glad she is OK kebabking, a bit scary for everyone.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The folk I know who are antivaxx are now apparently climate change deniers (along with their antisemitism).
The far right did a grand job of hoovering up the well meaning idiots.

 

[YouSir]

The folk I know who are antivaxx are now apparently climate change deniers (along with their antisemitism).
The far right did a grand job of hoovering up the well meaning idiots.

Well meaning?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Well meaning?

Yeah, bizarrely the ones I encounter are ostensibly on the (liberal) left.

 

[High Voltage]

I'll just leave this here

 

[gentlegreen]

"vaccines cause autism" just won the contest on "I know for a fucking fact that's not science".

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Still mentally struggling with this whole thread to be honest. I’m well schooled in the avoidance of paternalism as a health professional(I mean I’m not that professional but I’m qualified and registered wi the SSSC as a social care worker)
- so like, parents not vaccinating their kids really drives me round the bend and I have a child myself, at the same time forcibly vaccinating? Fuckin hell. This is why I’m not a Social Worker, they call themselves “agents of the state” eh. A carer always, always.

 

[crossthebreeze]

Strange times... there was a health visitor who rode a Vespa and wore a cork helmet ... and free rosehip syrup - I suppose people had started collecting during the wore and were still going 15 years later ...

EDIT :-
WAR

What is happening to my branes ?

As a older child/younger teenager (and other children in her Durham village) in the early 60s, my Mam used to pick rosehips (paid by weight) for a pharmacological company who made the syrup.

 

[campanula]

This is why I’m not a Social Worker, they call themselves “agents of the state”

They really don't. Speaking as an (ex) social worker with social worker daughter. Believe me, acting as an agent of state oppression is one of the deepest and most intractable tensions within the profession.

There are still clearly defined tenets and values...and being basically left-wing, even those who are mostly condescendingly so, is still part of the job description

 

[Proper Tidy]

Still mentally struggling with this whole thread to be honest. I’m well schooled in the avoidance of paternalism as a health professional(I mean I’m not that professional but I’m qualified and registered wi the SSSC as a social care worker)
- so like, parents not vaccinating their kids really drives me round the bend and I have a child myself, at the same time forcibly vaccinating? Fuckin hell. This is why I’m not a Social Worker, they call themselves “agents of the state” eh. A carer always, always.

Yeah I have this quandary between obviously thinking people who don't vaccinate their kids are dickheads and tops down enforcement via the state

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

They really don't. Speaking as an (ex) social worker with social worker daughter. Believe me, acting as an agent of state oppression is one of the deepest and most intractable tensions within the profession.

There are still clearly defined tenets and values...and being basically left-wing, even those who are mostly condescendingly so, is still part of the job description

Sorry, I read a book once and the writer- a social worker- kept calling them that. It was a good book! I just didn’t like the phrase, and the attitude around it that popped up a few times in the book from different social workers that had contributed. But I guess we have similar attitudes in care a lot of the time too, depends on the carer. I can imagine not everyone in Social work would have an issue with being an agent of the state, some would probably be attracted to the idea!
I think they’d contrasted social work with foster caring a few times in the book and I thought aye, that’s why I prefer that sort of role to social work. Have been considering foster caring too but need three bedrooms. Catch 22.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

The truth about Social Work; anyone in social work or care work should read it, lots of like RELATABLE STUFF man.

 

[campanula]

Sorry, I read a book once and the writer- a social worker- kept calling them that. It was a good book! I just didn’t like the phrase, and the attitude around it that popped up a few times in the book from different social workers that had contributed.

I would be lying if I didn't admit that for sure, there are social workers who are more punitive and judgmental, especially in children's services. It really should be emphasised that first of all, there are incredibly high thresholds to justify removing children into care and secondly, there are layers and layers of authority and responsibility , across numerous agencies - the final arbiters usually residing within the legal structure of family courts. But yep, tension between the idea of personal responsibility and systemic failure under capitalism is one of the key dichotomies within the care system...at almost every level. It's a difficult balance which, for me and my daughter, replicates a lot of the prevailing discourses around class (being working class in a predominantly middle class profession, for example)...although attitudes towards social workers are very variable. My daughter is keenly aware that she is the sole private renter, single parent on her entire team...which definitely informs her attitudes towards her families and dictates her career trajectory (a refusal to consider management). I escaped back in 2002.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Just to be clear here, cos I dont follow the argument - but i had my injections when i was a kid. Do i need more? I dont bother with the flu one every year. What should I be doing? what have I potentially caught from my vaccinations?

 

[campanula]

Yeah I have this quandary between obviously thinking people who don't vaccinate their kids are dickheads and tops down enforcement via the state

Given the direction of travel (ever rightwards), I would resist enforced vaccination which is based on authoritarian ideology and economic cost-cutting...and I am fairly certain that the desired results will not be achieved by these means.

 

[StoneRoad]

Given the direction of travel (ever rightwards), I would resist enforced vaccination which is based on authoritarian ideology and economic cost-cutting...and I am fairly certain that the desired results will not be achieved by these means.

I don't think we are talking about "forced vaccination" from that standpoint at all. IMO the current problem is that this loss of "herd immunity" is damaging the overall health of society and risking serious consequences for some individuals within it. Therefore "society" needs to find a way to ensure the level of vaccination is high enough, and how that is achieved is the question. Especially when woo and snake oil merchants can get such a hold on people.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Just to be clear here, cos I dont follow the argument - but i had my injections when i was a kid. Do i need more? I dont bother with the flu one every year. What should I be doing? what have I potentially caught from my vaccinations?

If you’ve had the two MMR vaccinations you don’t need more. I wouldn’t worry about flu unless you work with vulnerable people- god I am shit at keeping up with the Flu vac- as with anything my son often has 5 tries before I mind on his dental appointment, I think the health services here must have me on a list like aaaah!
You’ve surely caught nothing dinnae worry!

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I would be lying if I didn't admit that for sure, there are social workers who are more punitive and judgmental, especially in children's services. It really should be emphasised that first of all, there are incredibly high thresholds to justify removing children into care and secondly, there are layers and layers of authority and responsibility , across numerous agencies - the final arbiters usually residing within the legal structure of family courts. But yep, tension between the idea of personal responsibility and systemic failure under capitalism is one of the key dichotomies within the care system...at almost every level. It's a difficult balance which, for me and my daughter, replicates a lot of the prevailing discourses around class (being working class in a predominantly middle class profession, for example)...although attitudes towards social workers are very variable. My daughter is keenly aware that she is the sole private renter, single parent on her entire team...which definitely informs her attitudes towards her families and dictates her career trajectory (a refusal to consider management). I escaped back in 2002.

Good post

 

[campanula]

Therefore "society" needs to find a way to ensure the level of vaccination is high enough, and how that is achieved is the question. Especially when woo and snake oil merchants can get such a hold on people.

O for sure...but since some of the suggestions for maintaining herd immunity consists of preventing school attendance or with holding services...rather than a programme of education with massive emphasis on community, social responsibility, social advantages and even gentle public shaming, in effect any joined up planning will be directed state intervention... but I don't think it should be punitive.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

.....