Rejecting vaccination - "growing public health time bomb", NHS Chief warns

[kenny g]

Natural News articles are not mentioned on this site, due to the batshit content. A former poster was quite fond of posting links from them, and some of us would denounce whatever he posted using science. Good times.

Also, a gentle hint - you don't need to explain things all the time. Most people know that nurses aren't regulated by the GMC, for example. Just assume we know. Those that don't will ask, I promise.

I hadn't heard of the Natural New site before so thanks for to Gaia for raising it. Some fassinating articles on there Evil Google raced to hide all search results for the word "covfefe" after Trump tweeted it in hopes of making prez look stupid must take the biscuit.

 

[equationgirl]

I hadn't heard of the Natural New site before so thanks for to Gaia for raising it. Some fassinating articles on there Evil Google raced to hide all search results for the word "covfefe" after Trump tweeted it in hopes of making prez look stupid must take the biscuit.

Really? Considering you were an aficionado of Jazzz I find that hard to believe.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I've heard all manner of stories at work from people who sometimes have the flu jab about ill effects. I have one every year due to a dodgy heart (though I always get work to pay for it) and *sometimes* get a slightly sore arm for a day. I sometimes wonder whether people who just have it now again are more prone to attributing any random symptom to the vaccine. I'm sometimes a little disapproving of healthcare workers who dodge it, I think if you're working with people who are already sick, you really should.



I wouldn't say that. You've clearly thought about it.

I keep missing the flu vac by mistake- disorganisation is my chief flaw, that and being in a fucking profession that never leaves you even when you sleep.

In my defence, I never get the flu..... yeah I’m a cunt.

 

[kenny g]

Really? Considering you were an aficionado of Jazzz I find that hard to believe.

I remember the good Dr well but if he was a fan of that site I either must have not followed his links or have cast them from my mind. Probably all for the best to be honest. I genuinly don't recall having been to that site previously. It does have a wonderful mix of fake news, bogus products and hyper patriotism so I would be suprised if I had forgotten about it although Dr J did leave this site quite a few years ago. I found his contributions for the most part interesting
tbh.

 

[equationgirl]

I remember the good Dr well but if he was a fan of that site I either must have not followed his links or have cast them from my mind. Probably all for the best to be honest. I genuinly don't recall having been to that site previously. It does have a wonderful mix of fake news, bogus products and hyper patriotism so I would be suprised if I had forgotten about it although Dr J did leave this site quite a few years ago. I found his contributions for the most part interesting
tbh.

You mean his contributions denouncing vaccinations, modern medicine and antidepressants?

If by interesting you mean sadly deluded then yes, interesting.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Looks like kids that have't been vaccinated could be prevented from attending school.

The government is “looking very seriously” at making vaccinations compulsory for state school pupils and has taken advice on how such a law could work, the health secretary has said.

Matt Hancock, a vehement critic of anti-vaccination campaigners, has previously suggested such a plan. Speaking at a fringe event at the Conservative party conference, he said he was “very worried” by falling vaccination rates, indicating the government could act soon.

“I’ve said before that we should be open-minded, and frankly, what I’d say is that when the state provides services to people then it’s a two-way street – you’ve got to take your responsibilities, too,” Hancock told the Q&A session hosted by the Huffington Post.

Hancock: compulsory vaccinations being seriously considered

 

[High Voltage]

Hmmm! From the same article - my bold

He added: “You’ve got to make sure the system would work, because some children can’t be vaccinated and some may hold very strong religious convictions that you’d want to take into account, but frankly, the proportion of people in either of these categories is tiny, compared to the 7% or 8% now who don’t get vaccinated.”

Short of the parent coping the child's arm off because their conviction was so strong... I think not

 

[Rivendelboy]

If folks won't voluntarily vaccinate their kids, I'm not entirely sure what choice we have. Herd immunity seems vital to me. Can't say I'm happy hearing it come from a Tory though.

 

[kebabking]

If folks won't voluntarily vaccinate their kids, I'm not entirely sure what choice we have. Herd immunity seems vital to me. Can't say I'm happy hearing it come from a Tory though.

We could hear it from Himmler for all I care.

Are we hearing it from Labour?

 

[Rivendelboy]

We could hear it from Himmler for all I care.

Are we hearing it from Labour?

The same

 

[SpookyFrank]

As a person who reacts badly to live vaccines, I would like to see a robust procedure for ensuring that medical advice is taken into account when deciding to exclude unvaccinated kids. I'm also not a fan of lumping in medical reasons not to get vaccinated with 'religious reasons' which runs the risk of being a loophole big enough to render the whole compulsory vaccination idea moot.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As a person who reacts badly to live vaccines, I would like to see a robust procedure for ensuring that medical advice is taken into account when deciding to exclude unvaccinated kids. I'm also not a fan of lumping in medical reasons not to get vaccinated with 'religious reasons' which runs the risk of being a loophole big enough to render the whole compulsory vaccination idea moot.

Yep, especially when the medical reasons why some cannot be vaccinated are exactly the medical reason (herd immunity) why everyone who can be must be.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

What are the religious reasons? Is it the same people who refuse blood transfusions?

 

[farmerbarleymow]

What are the religious reasons? Is it the same people who refuse blood transfusions?

Guess so, but also the christian 'science' group don't much like medicine either. There shouldn't be religious exemptions when it is a matter of public health.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Guess so, but also the christian 'science' group don't much like medicine either. There shouldn't be religious exemptions when it is a matter of public health.

Totally this. It is one thing putting your own child in danger (and that's a highly questionable thing to allow in itself), but this is a question of putting others in danger.

 

[cupid_stunt]

What are the religious reasons? Is it the same people who refuse blood transfusions?

I think the Jehovah's Witnesses are OK with vaccination, but farmerbarleymow is right about the Christian 'Science' nutters, also the Dutch Reformed Church. There seems a conflict among Islamic leaders across the world, some for & some against.

Islam is not the only religion in the world that has come into friction with vaccine recommendations. Of the major religions practiced in the United States, only the Church of Christ, Scientist (whose adherents are known as "Christian Scientists") and the Dutch Reformed Church are the two religious groups that openly discourage vaccination. Islam in the United States, for the most part, has not opposed vaccination under the principle of necessity, meaning that vaccines are necessary for health, so they cannot be prohibited by religious law.

Very Few Religions Expressly Prohibit Vaccination, Yet Confusion Remains | History of Vaccines

 

[8ball]

Guess so, but also the christian 'science' group don't much like medicine either. There shouldn't be religious exemptions when it is a matter of public health.

If they want to live in a quarantined area on an island somewhere, then I don't have a problem with it.

 

[LDC]

If they want to live in a quarantined area on an island somewhere, then I don't have a problem with it.

Gruinard Island maybe?

 

[8ball]

Gruinard Island maybe?

I'd probably go for one a bit farther out.

 

[gentlegreen]

 

[Gaia]

Hmmm! From the same article - my bold



Short of the parent coping the child's arm off because their conviction was so strong... I think not

Exactly. I'm sorry, but this is what's caused the measles incidence rate to shoot up in the US - your imaginary friend DOES NOT take precedence over your kids health, end of. I don't care what the fuck your "beliefs" are - religious or otherwise - but, if they're more important to you than protecting the health of your kids - and, perhaps more pertinently, the health of those who cannot be vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons - then you should be given 2 choices: either you get them jabbed within 30 days - and prove that they have been - or they will be forcibly vaccinated.

You know what I think…? I think that the courts should be able to issue 'vaccination warrants', enabling a nurse, accompanied by a plod, to gain entry to the home of an anti-vaxxer. I don't give a fuck how draconian that sounds, most diseases, I think, have herd immunity rates in the mid-80s-mid-90s (percent) (correct me if I'm wrong).

I came here to post this: Should vaccinations be compulsory? (apparently it was only published on the BBC website an hour ago, so sorry if it's duplication).

The only valid reason for exemption from vaccination should be medical. Not religious, not libertarian, not 'vaccines cause autism' (or whatever the anti-vax bullshit du jour is).

Finally, the chief executive of the British Society for Immunology, Dr. Doug Brown claims that compulsory vaccination "could lead to the public losing confidence in vaccines" - eh…? People have "lost confidence in vaccines" because they think they cause autism, or brain damage or whatever, I don't understand what he's saying.

 

[Winot]

Looks like kids that have't been vaccinated could be prevented from attending school.

Hancock: compulsory vaccinations being seriously considered

The trouble with this policy is that, if the parent holds out, it denies a child its education through no fault of the child. I want those children to go into mainstream education so that they can be taught that their parent's views are wrong and dangerous.

If there are no good medical reasons not to vaccinate the child and the parent refuses to do so then it would be more consistent to take the child into care.

 

[kebabking]

This all got a bit personal today.

Over the weekend my #2, who's 8, developed a spectacular rash all over her body, accompanied by a fever and temperature which this morning went past 40c. Started off on the chest with small, distinct red spots, spread everywhere, and this morning those small, distinct spots merged to form huge red splodges all over her chest, belly, and upper arms.

We saw the out of hours GP on Saturday evening, and she thought it was a viral infection, but did the measles checks, the meningitis checks, checked the vaccination history, but eventually came down on the vide of a viral infection.

This morning, with the spots coalescing and her temp at 40.6c, the GP had her segregated from the other patients. the GP was seized of the moment, and after examining #2 for 30 seconds you could see the word MEASLES written across her face. She sent us down to the ever wonderful Paediatrics ward at Worcester - she very pointedly asked me if I had a fast car - where we were met by a Paediatric Registrar who, when she took #2's temperature and lifted up her t-shirt, went grey.

Now, eventually the dreaded Measles has been ruled out, and two Paediatric Consultants have decided that it's a reaction to a drug she's on for her epilepsy called Tegratol.

Not, dear reader, that she's on Tegratol any more...

The point of this endless tome therefore is to drive home the appalling seriousness that is measles - it's not chickenpox, it's a devastingly serious disease that spreads like wildfire, the fear of it turns Paediatricians grey, and idea that vaccinating your children against it, and protecting other children against it, is a something you have the right to say no to, is an idea that has long since been consigned to the bin of history.

Parents don't have the right to say no to education, they don't have the right to say no to social services, and they don't have an untrammeled right to say no to medical treatment - so there's no reason they should have the right to say no to vaccination.

(#2 appears to be fairly well - the rash is still there but the temperature has dropped a bit. She seemed remarkably happy at the idea of a Dirty Ron's for tea and no school tomorrow, so I think she's out of the woods...).

 

[cupid_stunt]

Glad #2 is on the road to recovery, kebabking.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Glad to hear she's on the mend. Hope all goes well. What's a dirty rons?

 

[kebabking]

Glad to hear she's on the mend. Hope all goes well. What's a dirty rons?

McDonald's.

If you saw Ronald McDonald near your kids you'd throw rocks at him. Hence Dirty Ron's...

 

[Winot]

Parents don't have the right to say no to education, they don't have the right to say no to social services, and they don't have an untrammeled right to say no to medical treatment - so there's no reason they should have the right to say no to vaccination.

Word.

(Glad she's better - scary stuff)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Was talking to my mum about this a while back. Now she's from a more deferential generation, which isn't all good, and was a nurse, so being anti-vac would have been rather odd, but for her such things as vaccinations are very simply a civic duty. There cannot be any question of not doing it. It sounds old-fashioned, but I think that as well - we do have some duties towards one another, and this is one of them. Some decisions have to be taken, and stuck to, collectively, and this is one of them.

 

[Proper Tidy]

McDonald's.

If you saw Ronald McDonald near your kids you'd throw rocks at him. Hence Dirty Ron's...

Ah. Was hoping it was the best greasy spoon I'd never heard of

 

[8ball]

Was talking to my mum about this a while back. Now she's from a more deferential generation, which isn't all good, and was a nurse, so being anti-vac would have been rather odd, but for her such things as vaccinations are very simply a civic duty. There cannot be any question of not doing it. It sounds old-fashioned, but I think that as well - we do have some duties towards one another, and this is one of them. Some decisions have to be taken, and stuck to, collectively, and this is one of them.

Yeah, to me it's one of those things like registering births and deaths etc. Just something that you do, as a responsible person (those things I mentioned are of course compulsory, but I've never heard anyone claim that this was down to some dark conspiracy).

A little before my time, people had parents, uncles etc. who had been affected by polio etc. and it just didn't occur to them that our recent relative freedom from infectious childhood diseases was anything other than a medical miracle.

So, let's say you make vaccinations compulsory, you still have the 'information war' element to deal with. Be interesting to see what would happen from that point...

I don't have an opinion that I'm trying to push on that matter by the way.