Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
That's interesting - and very honest of you. Out of interest, do you have any thoughts on what might have been a more productive path to go down?chilango said:
Reclaim the Streets - what happened??
- Thread starter wanderlust19
- Start date
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I dunno, the creative single issue nvda had been extremely successful, but the police had wised up and could np it in the bud, I think maybe more community based stuff...some of which was happenning, but not enough.
Of "community based stuff" is very vague and problematic in itself.
tbh. I still don't really know the way forward.
...and also and I think very important was the whole "green" thing...why did we lose our focus on this? It is more at the forefront of peoples minds than ever, yet we pretty much ditched it...
Of "community based stuff" is very vague and problematic in itself.
tbh. I still don't really know the way forward.
...and also and I think very important was the whole "green" thing...why did we lose our focus on this? It is more at the forefront of peoples minds than ever, yet we pretty much ditched it...
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Well, as I remember, a lot of people were talking about doing more community-based stuff in the wake of the break-up of RTS - some of it happened but not much as far as I know. Perhaps because of the problem you identified - that no-one really knew what it meant 
Or perhaps they didn't know how to resolve the contradiction between having non-mainstream views/ways of working, and wanting to 'work together' with or 'act within' mainstream* communities.
*for want of a better word
Or perhaps they didn't know how to resolve the contradiction between having non-mainstream views/ways of working, and wanting to 'work together' with or 'act within' mainstream* communities.
*for want of a better word
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Brainaddict said:Well, as I remember, a lot of people were talking about doing more community-based stuff in the wake of the break-up of RTS - some of it happened but not much as far as I know. Perhaps because of the problem you identified - that no-one really knew what it meant
Or perhaps they didn't know how to resolve the contradiction between having non-mainstream views/ways of working, and wanting to 'work together' with or 'act within' mainstream* communities.
*for want of a better word
Yeah.
There's also the problem that in many places there is no sense of community. I`ve not managed to live in many places with one. So the conditions simply aren`t there to do this.
To be fair, many people tried hard to do this...the redbricks in Hulme has some good ideas. Dunno how succesful they were though.
By that point though I think it was too late, the momentum had been lost. Many local EF! groups had already folded.
I think the seeds may have been sown quite early with division between the fulltime activists and those somewhat sneeringly referred to as "weekenders".
I think local based groups whilst often despèrately trying to orientate themselves towards a vague enitity known as "locals" were alienating their immediate periphery...people who probably would've provied a more natural link.
This was happenning as early as '96 iirc. In this respect Newbury may well have been the killer blow.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Interesting points chilango - you seem to have thought about this stuff a bit. Do you find that attempting to discuss the success of their methods with most activists will get you little but a load of ideological ranting?
Maybe it's just the way I do it
Maybe it's just the way I do it
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
Similar criticisms were made against the lack of local involvement in the Disarm DESI events, in that a load of "outsiders" (for want of a better way of putting it) simply came along and started protesting, without demonstrably looking to inform or involve anyone living in the locality. Now, I didn't agree completely with such criticism as there clearly was a degree of local involvement, both beforehand and in some of the actions taking place, but I do think the criticism was justified in that more could and should have been done to, for eg, leaflet local properties, speak to local community groups, etc. Problem is finding the bodies, the enthusiasm and the contacts though.chilango said:
untethered
For industry & decency
chilango said:...and also and I think very important was the whole "green" thing...why did we lose our focus on this? It is more at the forefront of peoples minds than ever, yet we pretty much ditched it...
Wasn't RTS perceived as being more green than anarchist?
Buds and Spawn
...if I can't dance...
Anarchist and Green thought were arguably the two most dominant perspectives / philosophies / views in London RTS - although in a very diverse, and at the group level contradictory way - e.g. Social Ecology v. Deep Ecology, and several shades inbetween.untethered said:
Additionally, RTS in London was essentially London EF!. The majority of RTS actions were also pretty much unknown outside the people doing them - RTS wasn't just about the big 'spectaculars'.
lightsinthebay
New Member
This is a really interesting thread. Looking from the outside I'd have to say this...
and what Chilango was saying in a subsequent post in regard to losing a green focus being a bad thing, and a needing more of a loca/community focus, seem pretty spot on, if not of course the whole story.
I think where people are in their lives and how mobilisation itself can build a sense of misplaced optimism, even if it is actually quite marginal mobilisation, builds this kinda "things are happening"!!! buzz, which will inevitably have to meet the cold light of day no matter what.
It is good to read the reflections of participants on this thread, I havn't seen much published reflecting back from a more long term perspective, it is important, insights that were hard won, and of interest to people like me who became interested in eco-defence, protest camps, RTS, and the like, after the period people are talking about.
chilango said:
and what Chilango was saying in a subsequent post in regard to losing a green focus being a bad thing, and a needing more of a loca/community focus, seem pretty spot on, if not of course the whole story.
I think where people are in their lives and how mobilisation itself can build a sense of misplaced optimism, even if it is actually quite marginal mobilisation, builds this kinda "things are happening"!!! buzz, which will inevitably have to meet the cold light of day no matter what.
It is good to read the reflections of participants on this thread, I havn't seen much published reflecting back from a more long term perspective, it is important, insights that were hard won, and of interest to people like me who became interested in eco-defence, protest camps, RTS, and the like, after the period people are talking about.
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
one half went to demonstrate outside the other halfes homes in nottinghill
see bash the rich thread for more details ....
J18 and the resultant Anti Terrorism Bill put the screws on direct action protests/demos in the UK imo.. Seattle and 9/11 gave Authority the credibility to stamp on dissent.. fundamental disagreements between advocates of NVDA and those considering violence as an option split RTS irrevocably.. there's no way that RTS was a failure tho' , it inspired and politicised people from all corners of the globe, and the ripples are still spreading....job done
And the M41 was one of the best days of my life too...take it and shake it
we played pretty much everything (apart from acid techno, someone else was looking after that) .. loads of punk, loads of ska and reggae, loads of jungle and D+B, and if we'd been into R+B we'd have played that too..if I'm a survivor by Destiny's Child had been released then we'd have rinsed it to fuck 
And the M41 was one of the best days of my life too...take it and shake it
we played pretty much everything (apart from acid techno, someone else was looking after that) .. loads of punk, loads of ska and reggae, loads of jungle and D+B, and if we'd been into R+B we'd have played that too..if I'm a survivor by Destiny's Child had been released then we'd have rinsed it to fuck 
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
This one? That's a motorway and we took the piss completelyi'll never forget that day.
by pure luck my friends and i were some of the first people to run up the motorway. when the curtain came back on the truck and the tunes started blaring and everyone went to help the stuff coming over the wall was amazing.
there is a fantastic panoramic pic on the net somewhere but i cant remember where
I was actively involved in RTS in the sticks but attended many of the events across the country, it was some of the most exhilarating experiences of my life, yet I was no raver or hedonist. Some of the things that happened took my breath way with their chutzpah and bravado, and yes there was a sense of freedom and possibilities. However, I do think it was successful because it was primarily a cultural movement, rather then a political one. Many of the participants were there for the 'partyyy man’ and nearly every teenager/student had heard of RTS. I clearly remember the tensions when RTS came down to support the dockers, a fine body of men and their womenfolk. They once gave a standing ovation to a poster on here for maintaining the base while the rest went on the picket line .I also recollect Jimmy Nolan(fifty odd att) dancing on top of a phone box! I also think there was a level of real paranoia, suspicion and indeed nastiness to those who didn't fit in, particularly if you were working class or a bit older: some of the posters on here may have even been the perpetrators of such behaviour. The other thing was the incredible hostility/focus to the police, although the Miners Strike had happened and they couldn’t be forgiven tbh, it was the Govt that was my main focus. .Having said all that I met some incredible inspiring people and some had amazing times. It certainly helped germinate/cross fertilise the A/C movement, which yes was hit badly by 911 but also Genoa(in some quarters called the 'Weekend War') but ultimately imo, what changes things as well is hard applied work, no more for me.
Whew, wanted to get that off my chest for years…
Whew, wanted to get that off my chest for years…
I always thought that 'Don't Fence Me In' should have been the RTS anthem!
'Sorry if that came across a bit angry, nothing personal. It's just that your attitude illustrates one of the problems with RTS IMO. It only really appeals to a very small group of people. There seems to be something about ownership here - acid techno is "our" music, i.e. punky, crusty, squatting music. Only "our" sort of people will get it. If you're into r'n'b then you won't get RTS. That's what I get from your attitude and I find it quite snobby tbh.
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'Sorry if that came across a bit angry, nothing personal. It's just that your attitude illustrates one of the problems with RTS IMO. It only really appeals to a very small group of people. There seems to be something about ownership here - acid techno is "our" music, i.e. punky, crusty, squatting music. Only "our" sort of people will get it. If you're into r'n'b then you won't get RTS. That's what I get from your attitude and I find it quite snobby tbh.
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chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
TopCat
Putin fanboy
There were alot of people on June 18th for whom the day was as much about revenge for Stop the City as any thing else. Myself and many mates would tend to think the best way forward would be to excalate the situtation with more free parties in reclaimed space together with more robust opposition to the police if they dared show up. Some of the movers and shakers in RTS were/are quite posh and were worried about being blamed and then banged up.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
so...more confrontational?
fine.
How would that broaden the movement...as opposed to narrow it down?
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Jesus, what a load of divisive bollocks. Yes, from what I've heard they were concerned about the police and media harassment they were getting. People do tend to be concerned about things like that. But I suspect they also recognised confrontation with the police as the dead-end it is. But don't worry about that - just let your testosterone and resentment flow...
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
J18 was a shit day imo. Gained nothing, lost a lot. Revenge for Stop the City? Please....
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Jesus, what a load of divisive bollocks. Yes, from what I've heard they were concerned about the police and media harassment they were getting. People do tend to be concerned about things like that. But I suspect they also recognised confrontation with the police as the dead-end it is. But don't worry about that - just let your testosterone and resentment flow...
You assert that confrontation withn the police is a dead end and I and many others do not agree with your view.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
The moment when the female mounted police person galloped into the crowd only to be faced by hundreds running at her who then dragged the horse to the ground remains one of the proudest moments of my life. It changed the use of mounted police on demos for ever.
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
Yes, what a success eh? At least one protestor run over by a police van, lots of people put off coming to demonstrations at all, subsequent demo's so heavily policed and supervised that virtually all actions were shut down, the "taking the piss but having a laugh" ethic which had previously worked so effectively lost for good. And you say that its revenge for something 15 years or more previous. It's all gravy eh?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
depends what you were aiming for really doesn't it? Whilst i think TC's assertion that RTS mioved back from the brink cos some movers and shakers were 'posh' is retarded, there is certainly a split between people who actually wanted massive confrontation in the centres of finance and with whoever dared to defend it, and those who wanted 'creative protest'.
This is not and has never been, a class cleavage - there has been a tendency with some less reflective anarchists to label all those who don't want to bathe in the blood of the constabulary as irredeemably bourgoise, but it is untrue in this case.
It is true that JJ Wotsisname is very much into 'creative protest' , hence the clowns etc. and i think it is true a lot of RTS people didn't want the confrontations BUT
- to say that there wasn't a huge amount of interest in the confronations is utter bollocks. What, did you miss the following 5 years of summit hopping and rioting?
If anything it is the rioting apects which have survived, not the 'creative protest'.
FWIW IMO J18 was the best thing RTS ever did as well.
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
Clearly different strokes for different blokes. Fair point about the wider impact, i was meaning in terms of the RTS stuff, which is/was the topic of the thread.
