Reclaim the Streets - what happened??

[Taxamo Welf]

Yes, what a success eh? At least one protestor run over by a police van, lots of people put off coming to demonstrations at all, subsequent demo's so heavily policed and supervised that virtually all actions were shut down, the "taking the piss but having a laugh" ethic which had previously worked so effectively lost for good.

this utterly baffles me.

lots of people put off coming to demonstrations at all, subsequent demo's

- demo's about what, for what?

which had previously worked so effectively lost for good.

worked so effectively in achieving what?

I don't understand at all. You can continue protesting all you like, but if at the heart of your 'protest' (and was RTS a protest?) is something so totally opposed to capitalism and the status quo, you will either end up in conflict or you will have failed.

I'm not pretending RTS and J18 are incredible anti-capitalist achievements, i just don't get what the fuck else they were meant to be if they weren't attempts at such.

My apologies to anyone who went on an RTS thinking it was all just for a laugh, you were heartlessly duped by anarchists.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Clearly different strokes for different blokes. Fair point about the wider impact, i was meaning in terms of the RTS stuff, which is/was the topic of the thread.

that's not what i said is it....?

where did i mention wider impact? My point about summit hopping was that clearly there was a mass of people up for violence against the cops and the financial centres, it isn't some projection by TC.

 

[chilango]

that's not what i said is it....?

where did I mention wider impact? My point about summit hopping was that clearly there was a mass of people up for violence against the cops and the financial centres, it isn't some projection by TC.

I think you over estimate the appetite for confrontation.

Sure, many were increasingly frustrated with the growing abilty of the police etc to neutralise more pacific methods of protest.

And, yeah, there were those who wanted to move beyond "mere protest".

But, and its a big but, this was not anywhere near the majority within the movements.

...and even amongst this "core" that wanted increased confrontation, or at least more physical contestation of space, some I'm sure sooner or later realised the limits of a strategy of escalation.I certainly did. I think the failure of summit hopping clearly illustrates these limits. (though tbh a recap of Europe in the 1970s should've done that...)

 

[The Black Hand]

Jesus, what a load of divisive bollocks. Yes, from what I've heard they were concerned about the police and media harassment they were getting. People do tend to be concerned about things like that. But I suspect they also recognised confrontation with the police as the dead-end it is. But don't worry about that - just let your testosterone and resentment flow...

It is confrontation that created the anti globalisation cycle of struggles from J18 and Seattle onwards - not 'hippy party love each other pacifist bollocks'.

 

[chilango]

It is confrontation that created the anti globalisation cycle of struggles from J18 and Seattle onwards - not 'hippy party love each other pacifist bollocks'.

Utter rubbish.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

that's not what i said is it....?

where did i mention wider impact? My point about summit hopping was that clearly there was a mass of people up for violence against the cops and the financial centres, it isn't some projection by TC.

oh do fuck off you pedantic twat. wider impact? well what about your statement "the following 5 years of summit hopping and rioting?", if not pointing to a series of co-ordinated political actions around the world, following some of what went on on J18? And as i said, as any fule could see, i think that impetus from the RTS parties and protests was lost - that had confused many in authority because it had been good natured, people dancing and smiling and testing the limits, as well as making many other people aware that there's more to all this around us than meets the eyes.

I am capable of thinking any particular thing has more than one particular impact or effect you know. I love the way that you criticise by asking what was achieved - you're buying into an idea that everything must have a result or hit a fucking target imo. Well sorry that revolution didn't happen, must have been too busy having fun as well as other stuff, crazy eh?

 

[durruti02]

so...more confrontational?

fine.

How would that broaden the movement...as opposed to narrow it down?

well simply that a lot of my mates and work mates who generally laughed at the fluffy RTS stuff were pretty impressed with J18 and that we had the courage to 'attack' the City/Boys .. it could and should have been made part of wider struggles .. ( and was briefly thru teh dockers stufff whihc was brilliant )

more generally not sure though how J18 it coukd have been progressed - STC stopped for the same reasons .. it was just not possible to repeat what with the police response

and for RTS? police harassment and the tensions between greenies and reds got too much .. like as AFA found too a high confrontation strategy is very hard to keep going

 

[Blagsta]

ots of people put off coming to demonstrations at all,

Did it? I thought it was ace as did most people I know. What put people off was the kettling tactics the police used subsequently.

 

[Blagsta]

It is confrontation that created the anti globalisation cycle of struggles from J18 and Seattle onwards - not 'hippy party love each other pacifist bollocks'.

Not really true, seeing as the first anti-globalisation RTS wasn't J18, it was Birmingham the year before. There was a mini confrontation at the end, but the real purpose was joining the dots between RTS as an anti-car/environmental thing and the G8 and broader issues.

 

[laptop]

There were alot of people on June 18th for whom the day was as much about revenge for Stop the City as any thing else.

Precisely the problem with J18.

There were many great things about it - and then there was this element of "we're-so-hardcore" anarchists celebrating their powerlessness, just like Stop the City.

More so with Maydays from 2000 on.

 

[The Black Hand]

Utter rubbish.

And you my friend are deluded. Refusing to take the fact that confrontation has been high on the agenda of all the large rallies from the beginning as being the causal factor of success. It was not the weak willed and effete middle of the road pacifist nothingness which led to the success of anti globalisation struggles

Do not overestimate the effect of, and the amount of boring waffle led social forum type meetings which the usual sad politicos tended to dominate. Rather it is the white heat of confrontation and direct struggles by people who seriously mean their politics, who were willing to put their bodies on the line, who ensured that class confrontation was central to the meaning of those mobilisations.

 

[TopCat]

I could have been less rude in my posts above and apologise.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Did it? I thought it was ace as did most people I know. What put people off was the kettling tactics the police used subsequently.

What can i say, other than what i said above? I didn't enjoy j18 at all - i was scared for my kids, who had previously been able to attend demo's and get involved (eg being some of the first people running up and onto the m21 was quite a buzz), it felt like people were spoiling for a scrap for no real reason, we ended up sitting in a boozer on the south bank watching cops and demonstrators attacking each other on the opposite side.

Yes of course kettling causes consternation but there's two things to consider, one is the fact that this tactic arose from the plods perceived need to actively control and restrain people (which i think was an outcome of j18 and other events). The other is that people allow themselves to get kettled to a degree - when the oxford st action took place (02?), we managed to keep away from and then break free from solid cordons of cops, i was part of a group of people who were chased from TCR right down to fucking Clerkenwell and beyond by riot clad cops who had to keep stopping for breathers.

And in the air of conciliation, apologies to Tax for my brusque language above, no offence mate

 

[chilango]

And you my friend are deluded. Refusing to take the fact that confrontation has been high on the agenda of all the large rallies from the beginning

Confrontation was rarely "on the agenda", certainly not from the beginning either. For sure, sometimes you could predict which were going to "kick off", but that's a different matter.

as being the causal factor of success. It was not the weak willed and effete middle of the road pacifist nothingness which led to the success of anti globalisation struggles

Confromtation with police is not, and was not a causal factor of success. But I suppose it depends how you define success.

One thing is for sure, those confrontations that were "militarily" victorious were largely those that came as a surprise, and were spontaneous cathching the police off guard. Not the pre-planned rucks of a militant minority.

Do not overestimate the effect of, and the amount of boring waffle led social forum type meetings which the usual sad politicos tended to dominate.

For sure. i never went to meetings like that.

Rather it is the white heat of confrontation and direct struggles by people who seriously mean their politics, who were willing to put their bodies on the line, who ensured that class confrontation was central to the meaning of those mobilisations

.

Martyrist nonsense. Re-read your Vaniegem on "roles" and "sacrifice".

 

[chilango]

well simply that a lot of my mates and work mates who generally laughed at the fluffy RTS stuff were pretty impressed with J18 and that we had the courage to 'attack' the City/Boys .. it could and should have been made part of wider struggles .. ( and was briefly thru teh dockers stufff whihc was brilliant )

Certainly, the "fluffies" unwillingness to defend themselves (or those they dragged onto protests) was often as equally disempowering...

...not the point TC was making though.

more generally not sure though how J18 it coukd have been progressed - STC stopped for the same reasons .. it was just not possible to repeat what with the police response

and for RTS? police harassment and the tensions between greenies and reds got too much .. like as AFA found too a high confrontation strategy is very hard to keep going

Quite.

I'm not a dogmatic pacifist. Just pointing out the limitations of a strategy of confrontation...particularly in the cintext we are talking about.

Even the Zapatistas (the guns and balaclava poster boys and girls of the time) recognised this.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

oh do fuck off you pedantic twat. wider impact? well what about your statement "the following 5 years of summit hopping and rioting?", if not pointing to a series of co-ordinated political actions around the world, following some of what went on on J18? And as i said, as any fule could see, i think that impetus from the RTS parties and protests was lost - that had confused many in authority because it had been good natured, people dancing and smiling and testing the limits, as well as making many other people aware that there's more to all this around us than meets the eyes.

I am capable of thinking any particular thing has more than one particular impact or effect you know. I love the way that you criticise by asking what was achieved - you're buying into an idea that everything must have a result or hit a fucking target imo. Well sorry that revolution didn't happen, must have been too busy having fun as well as other stuff, crazy eh?

this is a truly classic post.

I am printing this onto fabric and framing it.

Sums things up perfectly.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

And in the air of conciliation, apologies to Tax for my brusque language above, no offence mate

oh i just saw that.

No probs - i genuinley wasn't being pedantic. I know i'm a bit of a novelty by actually being an anarchist, not an 'anarchist inspired...' or 'situationist influence...' so forgive me for asking something from RTS which perhaps wasn't there for a reason. I find it very trying wehn people 'well, thats not socialism' and you are thinking, when did we say it was? Forgive me if I sound like leftist hack.

Even so, you have repeatedly mentioned a 'protest' or a campaign in RTS and debated which events or tactics 'worked' in relation to this. My question is then - what was the campaign? Whar was the protest? Once we have established that, then we can debate how successful an event or tactic was.

My view: RTS was a coming together of a lot of disparate groups and it developed a kmomnetum all of its own. Hoever, outside of it and within it too, was a strong anticapitalist confrontational element that wanted to really get stuck in in a way that was not protesting, but a demonstration of opposition and anger - and yes, that dates back to STC in the 80's amongst other things. Cos that's what i think, i see J18 as being a big success. They took london OFF the fucking stock exchange or something mental. They fought hand to hand with capital. Which is laughable in a lot of ways but was also really really inspiring and revealing, for people in the rest of the world especially. RTS's best hope was to create a genuinely subversive series of events that disrupted the atmosphere of 'business as usual' and the idea that this was just the way things were - and they achieved that. In my opinion, they achieved that best, with J18.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Just to add - J18 changed my life - and i just read about it in the papers. It really succeeded in getting people i know into a certain kind of politics and looking at things in a certain kind of way.

It kicked of a flurry of interest and liberal approximations of what was going on that lead a lot of people onto 'the hard stuff' and we'e been hopelessly hooked ever since

 

[kyser_soze]

And how did it all feed back into the class struggle? How did the wider w/c perceive the events and groups being discussed?

 

[chilango]

Just to add - J18 changed my life - and i just read about it in the papers.

On the other hand...

J18 changed my (political) life. For me, it represented the end of the road for a certain way of doing things. Yeah, it was impressive in many ways...but also it became blindingly obvious that we couldn't we repeat it (in the UK at least) without "military" escalation...and that such escalation was not going to broaden or deepen the struggle.

 

[TopCat]

On the other hand...

J18 changed my (political) life. For me, it represented the end of the road for a certain way of doing things. Yeah, it was impressive in many ways...but also it became blindingly obvious that we couldn't we repeat it (in the UK at least) without "military" escalation...and that such escalation was not going to broaden or deepen the struggle.

Why would it not?

I faced this back in the day when as a member of Class War back in the 80's.

I wanted to escalate things more and more and achieve increasing levels of confrontation with the state and it's representatitves the police and also with examples of rapacious capitalism. I ended up leaving Class War because the "shit their pants" tendancy were all scared of getting imprisoned but instead of admitting this, hid behind bollocks about vanguardism and not substituting one self for the working classes.

They followed this shit up with an analysis that said Capitalism would suffer an inevitable demise and that the role of good classs warriors was to wait and influence events when this long awaited day happened rather than kicking harder each day until it breaks.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Just to add - J18 changed my life - and i just read about it in the papers. It really succeeded in getting people i know into a certain kind of politics and looking at things in a certain kind of way.

It kicked of a flurry of interest and liberal approximations of what was going on that lead a lot of people onto 'the hard stuff' and we'e been hopelessly hooked ever since

So when you stated earlier on that "FWIW IMO J18 was the best thing RTS ever did as well", it wasn't from any kind of actual comparative experience of what had gone on previously, or even actually on the day itself, but from reading about it in the newspaper. And you go onto say that inspired you to get involved in political actions. It changed your life. And then you question the "success" of it all..... And if you missed the Trafalgar/Liverpool dockers march/party and the M41 party, then your statement that j18 is the best thing RTS did simply ain't true, cos i found these to be far more inspiring.

AFAIC, RTS was about reclaiming public space, it was about reconnecting people with each other, it was about making people realise that they could get out onto the streets without deference to the car culture that prevails, it was about environmental justice, it was about taking actions and making statements to try to inspire people, it was about many different things for many different people. But it was, for a while, "for" things rather than intrinsically "against" things - it was for reclaiming common space from capitalist enclosure, however you want to view that.

Public demonstrations are about either confrontation or celebration i read today. I enjoyed the celebration, i enjoyed seeing members of the public join in with street parties spontaneously, i enjoyed seeing orthodoxies being challenged in innovative ways, i enjoyed seeing massed ranks of people dancing and talking and planning what next. Sorry if that doesn't meet your novelty anarchist achievement benchmark. I'll make sure that all concerned try harder in future.

 

[chilango]

Why would it not?

I faced this back in the day when as a member of Class War back in the 80's.

I wanted to escalate things more and more and achieve increasing levels of confrontation with the state and it's representatitves the police and also with examples of rapacious capitalism. I ended up leaving Class War because the "shit their pants" tendancy were all scared of getting imprisoned but instead of admitting this, hid behind bollocks about vanguardism and not substituting one self for the working classes.

They followed this shit up with an analysis that said Capitalism would suffer an inevitable demise and that the role of good classs warriors was to wait and influence events when this long awaited day happened rather than kicking harder each day until it breaks.

If Class War didn't fancy risking imprisonment for a strategy of escalation, you can bet that the vast majority then why do you (did you) expect everyone else to as well.

Unless you can give a pretty damn good reason why people should risk imprisonment, injury etc then they ain't gonna.

A ruck with the cops is not going to acheive anything tangible enough for people to adopt it as a strategy.

 

[TopCat]

If Class War didn't fancy risking imprisonment for a strategy of escalation, you can bet that the vast majority then why do you (did you) expect everyone else to as well.

Unless you can give a pretty damn good reason why people should risk imprisonment, injury etc then they ain't gonna.

A ruck with the cops is not going to acheive anything tangible enough for people to adopt it as a strategy.

It was our strategy for a while, Class War members turned up at every bloody riot and picket and fought the police hand and boot. We had for a time an influence far in excess of our numbers and the split between the pro ruckers and the beardy theorists had not yet happened. Whilst this was our strategy we were selling 15,000-20,000 copies of our paper too, not bad for a load of letraset and pritt stick. .

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

It was our strategy for a while, Class War members turned up at every bloody riot and picket and fought the police hand and boot. We had for a time an influence far in excess of our numbers and the split between the pro ruckers and the beardy theorists had not yet happened. Whilst this was our strategy we were selling 15,000-20,000 copies of our paper too, not bad for a load of letraset and pritt stick. .

You're right about the public profile being far greater than the actual numbers involved - this was when there were two papers on the go presumably? The monthly(?) CW newspaper as well as the Heavy Stuff. Personally at the time, i never went for the hospitalised copper pieces, it was the kind of thing that put me off getting involved with CW tbh. But there was some tremendously humorous content and covers as well, there was the rioter lobbing a scaffold pole thru a cop car window with the headline "I bet she drinks Carling Black Label" which i remember.

 

[chilango]

It was our strategy for a while, Class War members turned up at every bloody riot and picket and fought the police hand and boot. We had for a time an influence far in excess of our numbers and the split between the pro ruckers and the beardy theorists had not yet happened. Whilst this was our strategy we were selling 15,000-20,000 copies of our paper too, not bad for a load of letraset and pritt stick. .

Yeah yeah.

But how many people were actually involved?

Not many.

Sure CW had an influence on the anarcho scene, and to an extent on a cultural level. I'd heard of you as a kid.

all well and good, but could you have kept it up?

Nope. Nor did you.

For valid reasons.

The same reasons that RTS could never have gone down that road, even if it had wanted to.

 

[kyser_soze]

TBH I can understand TCs argument - no revolution ever happened without people being locked up for it, and you *could* argue that it's a measure of the dedication to achieve change that many people aren't - I know it's a trite example, but Aung Sun Kyi in Burma has been imprisoned for her beliefs, as have 00s of Falun Gong followers in China...and they're all peaceful protestors!

OTOH I don't think you're going to build a better society in any way on the back of the continued legitimisation of violence as a means to achieve permanent social change, nor do I think that groups like RTS ever represented the views of more than a few 00000s of people...and that's even before you start looking at the class composition by background...(In case anyone's asking, I wasn't involved in any RTS but I met LOTS of people involved in the 90s protest groups and most of them were as far away from my experience of what w/c people were like, or what they wanted, as it was possible to get)

 

[TopCat]

Yeah yeah.

But how many people were actually involved?

Not many.

Sure CW had an influence on the anarcho scene, and to an extent on a cultural level. I'd heard of you as a kid.

all well and good, but could you have kept it up?

Nope. Nor did you.

For valid reasons.

The same reasons that RTS could never have gone down that road, even if it had wanted to.

Do you mind posting your valid reasons up for us to debate?

 

[chilango]

Do you mind posting your valid reasons up for us to debate?

Sure...

1) People are not willing to risk arrest, imprisonment or injury without very good cause.

2) Based upon a small group of people such a strategy is not sustainable. Some will drop out scared, others if they keep going will end up in prison.

3) The police etc. will easily develop tactics to neuter such strategies (we've already seen this). Only surprise and/or numbers will allow victories in tests of force against the state. A strategy of escalting force will have neither.

4) Many of your potential allies will consider increased violence uneccessary, counter productive or ethically wrong in this context.

 

[chilango]

If Class War didn't fancy risking imprisonment for a strategy of escalation, you can bet that the vast majority then why do you (did you) expect everyone else to as well.

Unless you can give a pretty damn good reason why people should risk imprisonment, injury etc then they ain't gonna.

A ruck with the cops is not going to acheive anything tangible enough for people to adopt it as a strategy.

...or these reasons.