Putin / Hitler comparison

[Ĝasper]

OK so Putin is telling us to take a long term view, going back to the fall of the Soviet Union or earlier, with this history justifying the invasion of Ukraine.

Just as Hitler took a long term view focused on the German territorial losses after WW1, but also going back earlier.

Putin is trying to get the west to blame itself for the invasion of Ukraine, comparing his actions to the Americans/NATO in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. Places out of sight and out of mind, which is sad but true.

Similarly, in the 1930s and 40s, there was an agreement among European powers that carving up Africa and Asia was fair game. Hitler's actions within Europe, were comparable to other European powers' actions in Africa and Asia.

Putin says he wants to denazify Ukraine. Well his actions echo Hitler's, and of course there are neonazis who support him, just as there are neonazis who oppose him.

Please keep discussion respectful to other posters.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a facile comparison, utterly worthless and persuasive only on the shallowest of levels

 

[RD2003]

People need to stop looking to the past for explanations. It isn't Hitler or Stalin all over again, and nor is it to do with 19th century-style empire building.

Vladimir Putin Is a Product of Modernity

Why the tension in Ukraine may feel deceptively regressive

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Clearly the invasion is not justified.But Iraq/Libya/Afghanistan are not 'out of sight' or mind. You cannot dismiss NATO imperialism this way. Or rather you can, but I don't buy it.

The agreement you speak of wasn't in the 30s/40s but the Congress of Berlin in 1884 surely?

It is necessary however to disentangle four issues

1) Putins false narrative about lack of Ukrainian identity, given Kiev was founded about 1,000 years before Moscow.

2) NATO's undoubted expansion since 1997: 14 additions. The US used the Monroe Doctrine to justify the Cuba Missile Crisis: a comparison between that and NATO expansion is interesting

3) Napoleon & Crimean War two previous Western incursions into Russia worth remembering: you can be sure Russians do.

4) Russia is a weak wounded power, and the West wants regime change to integrate Russia into the current Liberal order. This is an important sub-text: after all where is the Western media coverage/outrage about Saudi war crimes in the Yemen?

 

[brogdale]

It's a facile comparison, utterly worthless and persuasive only on the shallowest of levels

Yes, a facile comparison...but maybe discussion about any ideological basis for the Russian invasion of Ukraine could follow from the post above.

FWIW I'm not at all convinced that the conflict represents a conflict of competing ideologies.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, a facile comparison...but maybe discussion about any ideological basis for the Russian invasion of Ukraine could follow from the post above.

FWIW I'm not at all convinced that the conflict represents a conflict of competing ideologies.

I don't think the comparison is valid so not a good starting point for any discussion of an ideological base, it's like starting a conversation with a comparison of Glenn hoddle and pep guardiola as managers and then using that as a basis for discussing the bodyline series

 

[Ĝasper]

Clearly the invasion is not justified.But Iraq/Libya/Afghanistan are not 'out of sight' or mind. You cannot dismiss NATO imperialism this way. Or rather you can, but I don't buy it.

...

4) Russia is a weak wounded power, and the West wants regime change to integrate Russia into the current Liberal order. This is an important sub-text: after all where is the Western media coverage/outrage about Saudi war crimes in the Yemen?

I wish NATO imperialism / Saudi brutal expansion wasn't out of sight/mind, but it has been and is. Which you seem to acknowledge with your point on uneven Western media coverage / outrage. Not just traditional media, but social media, and among the left.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I wish NATO imperialism / Saudi brutal expansion wasn't out of sight/mind, but it has been and is. Which you seem to acknowledge with your point on uneven Western media coverage / outrage. Not just traditional media, but social media, and among the left.

It is not out of my mind! Nor Stop The Wars. Starmer and his crew are not on the Left of course.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

People need to stop looking to the past for explanations. It isn't Hitler or Stalin all over again, and nor is it to do with 19th century-style empire building.

If we don't look to the past for explanations where do we look?

 

[YouSir]

If we don't look to the past for explanations where do we look?

The present. Putin has been in power for 20+ years, he's consistently and repeatedly shown the world who he is, the Russia he rules has shown people how he runs things, his military actions have shown people his view of conflict. If you want to understand what he represents, how he gained power and what he does with it just look at what he represents, how he gained power and what he does with it.

 

[Petcha]

There are some similarities. The failed appeasement strategy being the most obvious (failed on our part I mean - taken for fools).

Like Hitler, he clearly already had all his plans laid out even as he was meeting with Western leaders. Unlike Hitler he didn't execute the whole thing particularly well.

 

[YouSir]

There are some similarities. The failed appeasement strategy being the most obvious.

Like Hitler, he clearly already had all his plans laid out even as he was meeting with Western leaders. Unlike Hitler he didn't execute the whole thing particularly well.

Not sure 'hid plans from potential enemies' and 'plans failed miserably' is particularly unique to Hitler.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The present. Putin has been in power for 20+ years, he's consistently and repeatedly shown the world who he is, the Russia he rules has shown people how he runs things, his military actions have shown people his view of conflict. If you want to understand what he represents, how he gained power and what he does with it just look at what he represents, how he gained power and what he does with it.

Precisely what I was aiming at. That all involves looking at the past.

 

[YouSir]

Precisely what I was aiming at. That all involves looking at the past.

Yes, Putin's past, not Hitler's.

 

[Petcha]

Not sure 'hid plans from potential enemies' and 'plans failed miserably' is particularly unique to Hitler.

He's modelling his approach on Blitzkrieg. He's just not as bright as our friend Adolf.

 

[Pickman's model]

He's modelling his approach on Blitzkrieg. He's just not as bright as our friend Adolf.

there are some significant differences from blitzkrieg. for example, the use of combined arms. but hey let's just chuck things round without examining them.

 

[Petcha]

there are some significant differences from blitzkrieg. for example, the use of combined arms. but hey let's just chuck things round without examining them.

The strategy is the same. The fact he was rather mentally talking about further targets in northern europe after a couple of days is right out of der fuhrer's playbook.

I take your point though, warfare's changed. But I assume he's a student of history and looks at envy at what happened with the sudatenland.

 

[Pickman's model]

The strategy is the same. The fact he was rather mentally talking about further targets in northern europe after a couple of days is right out of der fuhrer's playbook.

I take your point though, warfare's changed. But I assume he's a student of history and looks at envy at what happened with the sudatenland.

the strategy is rather different. hitler's blitzkrieg was intended to knock france and britain out of the war before he turned to his next target, the soviet union. putin's assault on ukraine by contrast.

also yeh warfare's changed but the way in which russian operations have not seen the same level of coordination between combined arms as hitler achieved doesn't bode well for their ability to achieve their end goal.

 

[Dogsauce]

He’s provided NATO with the gift of a huge increase in political capital, which they will be able to exploit for even greater expansion and capability. Massive own goal. Not sure what Putin was expecting really, that there would be division and decline in the face of a crisis? That they would fear him and look weak?

 

[tim]

Clearly the invasion is not justified.But Iraq/Libya/Afghanistan are not 'out of sight' or mind. You cannot dismiss NATO imperialism this way. Or rather you can, but I don't buy it.

The agreement you speak of wasn't in the 30s/40s but the Congress of Berlin in 1884 surely?

It is necessary however to disentangle four issues

1) Putins false narrative about lack of Ukrainian identity, given Kiev was founded about 1,000 years before Moscow.

2) NATO's undoubted expansion since 1997: 14 additions. The US used the Monroe Doctrine to justify the Cuba Missile Crisis: a comparison between that and NATO expansion is interesting

3) Napoleon & Crimean War two previous Western incursions into Russia worth remembering: you can be sure Russians do.

4) Russia is a weak wounded power, and the West wants regime change to integrate Russia into the current Liberal order. This is an important sub-text: after all where is the Western media coverage/outrage about Saudi war crimes in the Yemen?

What exactly is this NATO imperialism? NATO members such as France the USA, the UK and Turkey have imperial/ neo-imperial objectives, but the persuance of those objectives are not necessarily linked to their NATO membership. For those smaller Central and East European states that were allowed into NATO, membership offers a degree of protection from an aggressive neighbour.

Given the levels of capital outflow, Russia itself has been the biggest target of Western neo-imperial exploitation with the active connivance of its ruling elite, regardless of the latters view of NATO.

 

[Pickman's model]

He’s provided NATO with the gift of a huge increase in political capital, which they will be able to exploit for even greater expansion and capability. Massive own goal. Not sure what Putin was expecting really, that there would be division and decline in the face of a crisis? That they would fear him and look weak?

Don't worry, NATO will expend that political capital on wedding parties etc if their war goes hot

 

[tim]

4) Russia is a weak wounded power, and the West wants regime change to integrate Russia into the current Liberal order. This is an important sub-text: after all where is the Western media coverage/outrage about Saudi war crimes in the Yemen?

The outrage about Saudi crimes in Yemen was about as high as the outrage about Russian crimes in Syria. And as high the outrage about Russian occupation of Crimea and the Donbass; and the regime change in Georgia. It was superficial outrage. The assassination of those in exile who were out of favour with the Russian and Saudi regimes has also long been tolerated by Western powers. The reason for this is that Russia and Saudi Arabia are already fully integrated into that "Liberal Order". They supply much needed resources and much of the cash generated by the sale those resources is invested and managed by Western financial institutions.

It's only when the actions of the Russian and Saudi regimes are egregiously stupid and start generating adverse publicity for example: the Salisbury poisonings, the consulate dismemberment and this clusterfuck of an invasion, that the Western powers feel obliged to do something about their friends.

 

[gentlegreen]

 

[Gramsci]

Yes, a facile comparison...but maybe discussion about any ideological basis for the Russian invasion of Ukraine could follow from the post above.

FWIW I'm not at all convinced that the conflict represents a conflict of competing ideologies.

Your post reminded me of article Ive read. Didn't know where to or if to post it. As it's so unpleasant on some of the main threads

In Ukraine, Rival Worldviews Have Led to Unnecessary War | Novara Media

To understand why Russia launched its reckless operation in Ukraine - and why the US provoked it - we must look at their wider geopolitical visions, argues Oliver Eagleton.

novaramedia.com

Its saying both US and Putins Russia are driven by competing ideology. Which leads them to act in ways that aren't that rational. These ideologies also have some over lapping features.

The standoff that preceded the invasion was therefore over a point of principle – how much can the universal impinge upon the particular? – rather than a genuine security crisis. A symbolic concession from either side would have prevented the catastrophe that’s currently unfoldi

Putins ideology is a form of Russian ultra nationalism. Which does not preclude Russia being part of the global capitalist market.

As Budraitskis writes: “The repressive political regime, clerical rhetoric, obscurantism in cultural life and military pressure on neighbouring countries: all these were only stages along the path taken by a civilisation as it returned to its true nature.”

US/ Nato is unlike Putin "universalist"

What the article says is that neither political actors US/Nato or Putin have acted in straightforward rational way.

So both sides are driven by ideology and aren't behaving in rational power politics manner. Which is all the more disturbing.

The article references a lot of other writers. Including Russian ones.

As such, it is hard to make the case that either player, Russia or the US, has acted entirely out of rational self-interest. Attempts to reduce either of their positions to realpolitik tend to come up short.

 

[NoXion]

This thread reminds me of this which was shared on the main thread:

 

[bluescreen]

Not sure where's the best place for this, but this is the sort of thing Putin's speech about traitors and scum is only going to encourage:

 

[bluescreen]

This is a stretch - Putin's Eva Braun.
Torygraph tittletattle about the tsar's totty:

The secret life of Alina Kabaeva – the star gymnast who became Putin’s ‘Eva Braun’

Thousands want her extradited from Switzerland to Russia, but the Kremlin insists rumours of their marriage and children are misguided

www.telegraph.co.uk

paywall busted

The secret life of Alina Kabaeva – the star gymnast who became Putin’…

archived 24 Mar 2022 17:15:06 UTC

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